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[Music]

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and good evening from Philadelphia Frank

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here with another episode of UFO news

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network Sunday tonight coming to you on

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a Thursday night another day closer to

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the weekend and with me as always my

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co-host to introduce our special guest

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for tonight

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my co-host chant Hannah good evening

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Jane how are you good evening Frank I'm

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doing real really well thank you we have

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a wonderful guest on with us tonight his

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name is Tom Bowden he joined MUFON in

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2000 as a member then became a field

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investigator he then moved on to

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becoming an assistant state director in

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2001 immediately there became state

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director of Oregon MUFON mid-seventies

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Tom joined a Pro also known as the

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aerial phenomena research organization

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he immediately became a field

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investigator in that organization and

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was a field investigator for a pro in

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the 70s which I believe Abril to exist

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in about 1984 previous knowledge about

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UFOs he had previous knowledge about

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UFOs and had colleagues that were

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involved in the same topic as well

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the current assistant state director of

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Oregon MUFON is Kelly Graham and Oregon

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MUFON has field investigators who are

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actively working on UFO related cases

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right now thank you Tom Bowden for

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coming on to the show with us today

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thanks we appreciate you coming on this

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show I had a wonderful opportunity to

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speak to you beforehand and they really

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want to learn more about a really

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fascinating case that you'd like to

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bring up tonight and that is a

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McMinnville case do you mind sharing a

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little bit about that topic I'm sorry

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that for some reason I didn't get what

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you just said well yeah we're gonna want

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to talk about the McMinnville case so

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they've got a big festival built up

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around it and you have a famous case so

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will you tell us all about it oh

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absolutely

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McMinnville all right in on May 11th

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1950 a farmer named Paul Trent and his

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wife were living near me

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they weren't ask me in town they're up

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on a farm out beyond the town a bit and

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they uh the the wife saw and and her

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name was Evelyn she saw an object in the

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air is that what we call a flying saucer

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and she she I ran in a call to her

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husband said Paul quick get the camera

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there's a flying saucer out here so he

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came out with the camera and they they

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saw - both of them saw it and another

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relative I believe it was her uncle or

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something I forget exactly what the

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relationship was but another family

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member also saw it Paul got two shots

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with a an old-fashioned camera with a

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large-format black-and-white film he

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didn't get the film developed right away

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after a few days he took the film into

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town it was developed and gentlemen in

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the drugstore looked at the photo and he

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said wow look at this photo that Paul

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got he took that the he made up an

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eight-by-ten print of it and he took it

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and he showed it to the man in the bank

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and he showed it to the newspaper editor

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and they decided oh this is great and

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they ran it on the front page of the

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newspaper

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well back in those days we didn't have

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the internet but we did have wire

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services this got on the wire services

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and went viral today we talked about

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things going viral on the internet back

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then it was just the wire service but it

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was picked up by other newspapers and

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magazines all over the country uh

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technically all over the world and

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meanwhile Paul and Evelyn Trent there

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were just Oregon farmers they weren't

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looking for publicity they didn't know

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anything about all this stuff in fact

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they were not even they didn't even give

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permission

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for these photos to be published it was

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the the the man in the drugstore who

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developed photos and newspaper publisher

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in the in the banker who put a picture

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in his front window who initiated the

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publicity well it's one of the most

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interesting and hotly debated photos

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over many years of ufology and I will

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tell you it stands up to the test of

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time because it's been analyzed by some

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experts some of the people who claimed

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that it was a fake their story's been

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debunked because first of all Paul and

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Evelyn Trent were just farmers there

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were not someone who's looking for

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publicity there were not someone who

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would have faked a photo like this

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besides the fact that they had no idea

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how to fake a photo

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some people claim because there were

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telephone wires in the photo that it was

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a model suspended by telephone wire by

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wires from the telephone wires but I've

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got that line up right now and it looks

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like it is well behind what those wires

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look like they go over the top of a bar

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and it looks like with a tank attached

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to the side of it and then the the

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photograph of the UFO is sort of more

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from more about like a top-down angle

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and it looks like it is well behind

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where that barn and that those wires are

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well that's that's a good point that

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you're making but but when it comes to

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analysis like this you got to go with

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facts you can't just go with someone's

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yes and dr. Bruce Maccabee who's an

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expert in photo analysis and actually

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worked for the US Navy as a photo

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analyst by the way he's one of the

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people on a team that discovered the the

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Russian missiles in Cuba and during

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human Missile Crisis and so he's really

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made his reputation as a photo analyst

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but anyway he did an analysis of that

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photo and he said look the

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the atmospheric interference causes

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distant objects to have a different look

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than things that are close and he

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pointed out that the telephone poles and

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telephone wires were closer to the

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camera than the object by quite a

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distance and this was just based on the

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amount of of a light fall-off that

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occurs over distance due to atmospheric

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interference and he did a mathematical

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analysis of that so where was any

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partner

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nothing erupted but that was dr.

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Maccabee able to come up with an

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estimate in terms of the size and

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distance of the object decide yeah the

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distance yeah I don't have that

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information handy but what I was going

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to just say is this this case alone is

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worth a great deal of study and I don't

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have all the facts in front of me

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because I wasn't really prepared to talk

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about that particular case but I will

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tell you that it's it's really worth

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looking into and I would invite anyone

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who is really interested in it to look

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it up on the internet and try to get as

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much material as you can about it and

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you'll find it it's that it's a really

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great case and the photos are there and

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they speak for themselves they're easy

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to find so you can look at it for

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yourself and yeah you know one as well

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and I can change that quite a bit in

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terms of angle two photographs taken

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from the same angle but the object

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really in a quite a different position I

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I want to point out that that photos are

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important but it I always feel and I'll

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say it again and again tonight when we

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look at photo cases we need to

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understand the people involved who took

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the photo what was the situation because

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in a lot of ways human perception

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Trump's the photo and also you want to

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know something about the character of

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the people now Paula Neville Trent have

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passed away but they have relatives

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still in McMinnville and the people that

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knew them the people that are

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related to them they know that Paul and

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Tripp Evelyn Trent were people of the

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highest character they will there were

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planting farmers there weren't any one

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that would engaged in any kind of a

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funny business or anything like that you

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know I got a phone call coming in on

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another line I got a music okay well

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we've got these images up here now chant

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you're still with us right I am

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absolutely enthralled by this case Emily

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yeah let's see I have yeah have you

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taken a good look at these pictures

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because they are compelling they really

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are

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yeah I'm staring at them right now and

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it looks like folks have analyzed these

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photos to death and there's quite an

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interesting definitive biography of of

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them including a provenance on Wikipedia

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com regarding the McMinnville UFO

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photographs and it just a little blurb

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on it it says the McMinnville UFO

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photographs were taken on a farm near

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mcfinn Ville Oregon in 1950 the photos

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were then reprinted in Life magazine and

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in newspapers across the nation and are

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considered to be among the most famous

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ever taken of a UFO and and then of

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course Tom goes on to mention how folks

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have suspected some kind of trickery or

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hoaxes related type activity but it does

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say that many I think there are many

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serious folks with academic backgrounds

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who take these photos very seriously and

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it looks like got one of the photos that

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I was able to find was published in life

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looks like they they sent somebody out

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looks like life magazine itself sent

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somebody out and took a picture of one

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of the the young boys that were part of

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the families standing up on a stepladder

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there so that is really interesting also

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I'm glad that folks had the ability to

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magnify these images to the level they

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have they're actually pretty clear so if

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folks want to see something that has

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been scrutinized probably thousands of

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times

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not more by people all around the world

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who are just stumped by these pictures

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you might want to really look up these

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these fascinating photos and another

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thing I brought up with Tom he didn't

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wasn't too terribly up on it so he

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didn't want to go into it but I'll

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mention it while we have a little bit of

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a break here a few years later in 1954

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there was a photograph taken in Rouen

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France that seemed to show another UFO

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that looked them in really quite a bit

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not pretty much a dead ringer for this

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particular McMinnville UFO and that got

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a lot of additional attention as well so

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that was a little bit of an interesting

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saiga sideline side story to this

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particular case so a very interesting

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case here very interesting I see how I

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should have kind didn't tell you told

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you that I been back for a minute or so

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okay call but the phone was ringing

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behind me so I just yes yeah I was just

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talking about how it looks like a Life

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magazine took the extra step to actually

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send somebody out to the Trent farm and

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actually it looks like they did a story

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they took some photographs it looks like

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one of the the sons in the family is in

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one of the photographs here all right

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okay well I just wanted to mention a

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little bit about Bruce Maccabee who

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actually Frank and I do know and I've

274
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:39,210
actually come to know as well

275
00:13:46,670 --> 00:13:43,890
he's a an icon in the realm of ufology I

276
00:13:49,550 --> 00:13:46,680
don't know anybody who couldn't know him

277
00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:49,560
and be involved in ufology he's an

278
00:13:53,870 --> 00:13:52,050
American optical physicist and he was as

279
00:13:57,260 --> 00:13:53,880
Thomas saying formerly employed by the

280
00:14:00,050 --> 00:13:57,270
US Navy and he received his physics at

281
00:14:03,020 --> 00:14:00,060
were sister Worchester Polytechnic

282
00:14:05,180 --> 00:14:03,030
Institute in Worchester Massachusetts

283
00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:05,190
and then he moved on to Washington DC

284
00:14:09,620 --> 00:14:07,770
and he began his career at the naval

285
00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:09,630
ordnance laboratory in white oak Silver

286
00:14:14,570 --> 00:14:11,610
Spring Maryland which later became the

287
00:14:16,700 --> 00:14:14,580
Naval Service Warfare Center division so

288
00:14:18,740 --> 00:14:16,710
I just wanted to share that background

289
00:14:20,990 --> 00:14:18,750
on him including that he worked on optic

290
00:14:22,970 --> 00:14:21,000
data processing a generation of

291
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:22,980
underwater sound with lasers and various

292
00:14:27,410 --> 00:14:25,170
aspects of the Strategic Defense

293
00:14:33,079 --> 00:14:27,420
Initiative and ballistic missile defense

294
00:14:34,790 --> 00:14:33,089
using high-power lasers alright and so

295
00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:34,800
Tom I do you have anything more about

296
00:14:38,749 --> 00:14:36,930
the McMinnville case or do we want to

297
00:14:40,970 --> 00:14:38,759
move on to some of the cases you worked

298
00:14:42,740 --> 00:14:40,980
as state director for MUFON yeah I

299
00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:42,750
really like to move on because there's

300
00:14:46,699 --> 00:14:44,430
lots of info out there about to

301
00:14:51,499 --> 00:14:46,709
McMinnville key but I've got a lot more

302
00:14:56,050 --> 00:14:51,509
cases Oregon when when you look at the

303
00:14:58,639 --> 00:14:56,060
stats on UFO cases reported to MUFON

304
00:15:01,069 --> 00:14:58,649
Oregon if you just look at the sheer

305
00:15:03,379 --> 00:15:01,079
numbers organ doesn't rank that high but

306
00:15:07,059 --> 00:15:03,389
if you compared a number of reports to

307
00:15:10,999 --> 00:15:07,069
the to the population it turns out

308
00:15:14,449 --> 00:15:11,009
Oregon has a high rate of UFO reports

309
00:15:16,970 --> 00:15:14,459
per capita and so we have a lot of

310
00:15:18,499 --> 00:15:16,980
activity here right now is there any

311
00:15:20,119 --> 00:15:18,509
particular part of the state that seems

312
00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:20,129
to stand out compared to any of the

313
00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:26,610
others any hot spots well I have I have

314
00:15:32,269 --> 00:15:29,730
a little problem with that I tried to

315
00:15:36,799 --> 00:15:32,279
chase down some hot spots over the years

316
00:15:38,350 --> 00:15:36,809
and it's really tricky because one of

317
00:15:43,579 --> 00:15:38,360
them one of the problems we have with

318
00:15:47,329 --> 00:15:43,589
UFO reports is we get we only get a

319
00:15:50,179 --> 00:15:47,339
small percentage of the reports from

320
00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:50,189
people who see web those and and because

321
00:15:54,559 --> 00:15:52,050
we don't know how many people see UFOs

322
00:15:57,139 --> 00:15:54,569
that don't report them we can't quote

323
00:15:59,090 --> 00:15:57,149
you an exact number but Stanton Friedman

324
00:16:02,389 --> 00:15:59,100
and I talked about this and he agreed

325
00:16:05,900 --> 00:16:02,399
with me we're pretty sure that the rate

326
00:16:10,730 --> 00:16:05,910
of reporting is is somewhere south of 10

327
00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:10,740
percent and we think even more like 5

328
00:16:19,910 --> 00:16:16,050
percent of people who see UFOs report

329
00:16:22,819 --> 00:16:19,920
them to someone or to an organization

330
00:16:25,009 --> 00:16:22,829
like MUFON one of the problems is people

331
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:25,019
don't know where to report them one of

332
00:16:28,970 --> 00:16:26,850
the big problems is that people try to

333
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:28,980
report them to the Air Force to get

334
00:16:32,390 --> 00:16:31,199
nowhere if they report them to the local

335
00:16:36,460 --> 00:16:32,400
police

336
00:16:40,070 --> 00:16:36,470
for them it's not a crime it's not a

337
00:16:42,920 --> 00:16:40,080
public safety issue that they can really

338
00:16:45,350 --> 00:16:42,930
say is is in their jurisdiction so

339
00:16:47,630 --> 00:16:45,360
unless the police policemen themselves

340
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:47,640
see the UFO it's very unlikely that

341
00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:49,410
they're going to react to a report like

342
00:17:00,079 --> 00:16:56,250
that so but but still there are some

343
00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:00,089
areas where I've seen some from time to

344
00:17:05,689 --> 00:17:02,370
time statistical anomalies where I say

345
00:17:08,809 --> 00:17:05,699
oh wow there's more reports from that

346
00:17:10,340 --> 00:17:08,819
area then you would think for the size

347
00:17:13,549 --> 00:17:10,350
of the town let me give you an example

348
00:17:16,819 --> 00:17:13,559
there's a town named Sutherland down

349
00:17:20,949 --> 00:17:16,829
along i-5 somewhere north of Roseburg

350
00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:20,959
Oregon it seems to have a

351
00:17:25,970 --> 00:17:22,650
disproportionately high number of

352
00:17:30,830 --> 00:17:25,980
reports coming from there it's it's in a

353
00:17:33,470 --> 00:17:30,840
big wide valley with a lot of views it's

354
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:33,480
not heavily forested right there close

355
00:17:38,630 --> 00:17:35,730
to the highway

356
00:17:40,490 --> 00:17:38,640
so about half of the reports more or

357
00:17:42,740 --> 00:17:40,500
less that I've gotten from that area

358
00:17:45,440 --> 00:17:42,750
over the years have been from people

359
00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:45,450
that are traveling on i-5 through there

360
00:17:49,549 --> 00:17:47,610
so they're not residents of the area but

361
00:17:52,700 --> 00:17:49,559
there are reports from residents in the

362
00:17:55,790 --> 00:17:52,710
area as well so I guess if if there were

363
00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:55,800
a hotspot that might be blonde but I

364
00:18:00,440 --> 00:17:58,170
don't have a real any real hard data to

365
00:18:02,500 --> 00:18:00,450
say yeah that's for sure a hot spot and

366
00:18:06,470 --> 00:18:02,510
hot spots are a little tricky because

367
00:18:10,430 --> 00:18:06,480
you can have something going on in one

368
00:18:12,410 --> 00:18:10,440
area or a couple of months or even maybe

369
00:18:14,930 --> 00:18:12,420
a whole year and then it fades away and

370
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:14,940
it's not happening anymore mm-hmm it's

371
00:18:20,390 --> 00:18:17,760
really hard to pin that down now you did

372
00:18:23,419 --> 00:18:20,400
send look-see me I you did send along a

373
00:18:25,460 --> 00:18:23,429
couple of drawings of sightings it looks

374
00:18:28,610 --> 00:18:25,470
like the people got the witness has got

375
00:18:31,070 --> 00:18:28,620
a pretty good look at the UFOs the one

376
00:18:34,580 --> 00:18:31,080
that I've got up now is the one that

377
00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:34,590
there's a triangle with yellowish lights

378
00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:36,420
at each point and then one in the center

379
00:18:42,190 --> 00:18:41,010
and you've got a directional north west

380
00:18:46,990 --> 00:18:42,200
east south

381
00:18:49,540 --> 00:18:47,000
on the image so yeah yeah can you tell

382
00:18:51,670 --> 00:18:49,550
us a little bit about that case a little

383
00:18:53,260 --> 00:18:51,680
bit I wasn't the primary investigator on

384
00:18:56,710 --> 00:18:53,270
this one but I do

385
00:19:00,460 --> 00:18:56,720
I did just look at this one two young

386
00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:00,470
men were hanging out on our back deck of

387
00:19:06,970 --> 00:19:05,630
the one guy's house I'm not sure what

388
00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:06,980
they were doing but they were doing

389
00:19:14,260 --> 00:19:10,210
whatever they were doing and they were

390
00:19:17,770 --> 00:19:14,270
looking at the sky and one of them saw

391
00:19:19,870 --> 00:19:17,780
this object go over and he tried to tell

392
00:19:22,780 --> 00:19:19,880
the other guy but he was somewhat

393
00:19:26,110 --> 00:19:22,790
obscured by the trees so he didn't see

394
00:19:29,170 --> 00:19:26,120
it as as well but the the primary

395
00:19:31,060 --> 00:19:29,180
witness who filed the report said he saw

396
00:19:32,950 --> 00:19:31,070
this object go over three lights on the

397
00:19:34,750 --> 00:19:32,960
bottom actually you may have been a

398
00:19:41,230 --> 00:19:34,760
central light at look at the picture but

399
00:19:43,540 --> 00:19:41,240
I see so many I get a mixed up when over

400
00:19:45,970 --> 00:19:43,550
very sort of yeah yeah I said it took

401
00:19:48,430 --> 00:19:45,980
about 15 seconds to go across the sky

402
00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:48,440
and that was in here Oh Hillsboro Oregon

403
00:19:57,820 --> 00:19:54,530
which is a suburb west of Portland in

404
00:19:59,980 --> 00:19:57,830
the same area a few years and that was

405
00:20:04,990 --> 00:19:59,990
it that was in September on September

406
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:05,000
11th 2013 that occurred so I have

407
00:20:12,520 --> 00:20:07,490
another report from that same area

408
00:20:17,170 --> 00:20:12,530
Hillsboro October 16th 2011 at the early

409
00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:17,180
morning hours 6:10 a.m. that woman had a

410
00:20:23,050 --> 00:20:20,690
picture her daughter up from from

411
00:20:29,610 --> 00:20:23,060
Hillsboro Airport and they were driving

412
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:29,620
on heading out on u.s. highway 26 and

413
00:20:35,710 --> 00:20:32,810
they saw a long rectangular object with

414
00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:35,720
a triangular nose cone she said it

415
00:20:41,140 --> 00:20:36,770
looked like the Washington Monument

416
00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:41,150
lying on its side traveling through the

417
00:20:46,660 --> 00:20:44,810
air and it had red and he was written by

418
00:20:49,360 --> 00:20:46,670
a blights on it no red and green lights

419
00:20:51,910 --> 00:20:49,370
sorry I got a lot of reports here so

420
00:20:54,100 --> 00:20:51,920
they they had a view of it for about

421
00:20:55,630 --> 00:20:54,110
five minutes before it disappeared off

422
00:21:00,850 --> 00:20:55,640
into the

423
00:21:03,910 --> 00:21:00,860
there's a there's a big golf course up

424
00:21:05,950 --> 00:21:03,920
there called pumpkin pumpkin Ridge they

425
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:05,960
sometimes have some PGA events there so

426
00:21:13,330 --> 00:21:07,610
you might have heard of it anyway it

427
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:13,340
went off in that direction why about I

428
00:21:16,990 --> 00:21:15,290
have a lot of these triangle cases I was

429
00:21:19,030 --> 00:21:17,000
just doing a little presentation on

430
00:21:30,490 --> 00:21:19,040
triangle cases so I put together a

431
00:21:33,630 --> 00:21:30,500
little I had another case of a pave now

432
00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:33,640
this is interesting because this is two

433
00:21:41,350 --> 00:21:36,170
independent witnesses and this occurred

434
00:21:43,690 --> 00:21:41,360
on August 12 2009 the first report came

435
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:43,700
from a woman who was driving north on

436
00:21:51,010 --> 00:21:46,490
i-5 near Woodburn which is south of

437
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:51,020
Portland and she said she saw the this

438
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:52,850
object with really bright lights on it

439
00:21:56,230 --> 00:21:54,050
coming toward her and at first she

440
00:21:58,260 --> 00:21:56,240
thought it was a plane but when she got

441
00:22:01,960 --> 00:21:58,270
when it got closer she realized it was a

442
00:22:06,090 --> 00:22:01,970
strange-looking triangular craft with

443
00:22:09,610 --> 00:22:06,100
really bright lights and it passed over

444
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:09,620
toward the rear of her car going

445
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:11,690
diagonally across the highway and she

446
00:22:17,590 --> 00:22:15,530
looked around and realized that there

447
00:22:20,740 --> 00:22:17,600
was a lot of traffic on the freeway just

448
00:22:22,510 --> 00:22:20,750
you know just potentially hundreds of

449
00:22:28,900 --> 00:22:22,520
other people but I could have seen this

450
00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:28,910
thing uh but she was so interested to

451
00:22:33,100 --> 00:22:31,850
find out what it was he pulled off to

452
00:22:35,049 --> 00:22:33,110
the side of the road and got out of her

453
00:22:37,930 --> 00:22:35,059
car but like by the time she went around

454
00:22:40,030 --> 00:22:37,940
the back of her car it was gone and she

455
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:40,040
never saw it again and that was about

456
00:22:46,120 --> 00:22:42,770
8:15 in the evening on that same date

457
00:22:47,410 --> 00:22:46,130
August 12 2009 okay that snow would have

458
00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:47,420
been not what a day that would that

459
00:22:51,549 --> 00:22:48,950
would have been a daylight sighting man

460
00:22:53,890 --> 00:22:51,559
that 8:15 in August right would not

461
00:22:57,820 --> 00:22:53,900
would that be about right now I would

462
00:23:00,210 --> 00:22:57,830
call it maybe twilight okay possibly

463
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:00,220
yeah it's probably probably at least

464
00:23:09,130 --> 00:23:04,330
substantial amount of daylight so then a

465
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:09,140
compliments later I get another report

466
00:23:17,710 --> 00:23:14,690
same date of the event 8:30 p.m. a man

467
00:23:21,850 --> 00:23:17,720
driving along on i-5 also driving

468
00:23:24,250 --> 00:23:21,860
northbound south of Brooks Oregon which

469
00:23:26,770 --> 00:23:24,260
is about 8 miles south of Woodburn where

470
00:23:29,230 --> 00:23:26,780
the first report came from and he said

471
00:23:31,330 --> 00:23:29,240
he saw a triangular object with three

472
00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:31,340
really bright lights on it moving north

473
00:23:37,090 --> 00:23:34,520
to south passed over the highway he said

474
00:23:39,670 --> 00:23:37,100
it was about a few hundred feet in

475
00:23:43,150 --> 00:23:39,680
altitude which is very low be too low

476
00:23:45,970 --> 00:23:43,160
for a four legally for a private plane

477
00:23:51,130 --> 00:23:45,980
or an air airliner to be flying over

478
00:23:53,740 --> 00:23:51,140
there the freeway and he thought it went

479
00:23:56,890 --> 00:23:53,750
over the the edge of the scrubby trees

480
00:23:59,020 --> 00:23:56,900
along the freeway there and went down in

481
00:24:01,600 --> 00:23:59,030
the field like landed in the field

482
00:24:04,390 --> 00:24:01,610
beyond there that was his impression and

483
00:24:08,020 --> 00:24:04,400
he looked around and he said wow there's

484
00:24:10,030 --> 00:24:08,030
a lot of people driving here I wonder

485
00:24:12,130 --> 00:24:10,040
how many of them saw it and he noticed

486
00:24:14,710 --> 00:24:12,140
people in the car next one to his left

487
00:24:16,750 --> 00:24:14,720
had been looking at it and pointing and

488
00:24:21,100 --> 00:24:16,760
he knew that they were reacting to it as

489
00:24:26,350 --> 00:24:21,110
well so I looked at this and I realized

490
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:26,360
here we have two reports same date 8

491
00:24:33,610 --> 00:24:31,970
miles apart 15 minutes apart most likely

492
00:24:36,700 --> 00:24:33,620
they were looking at the same object

493
00:24:40,210 --> 00:24:36,710
right right but but it's very likely

494
00:24:43,030 --> 00:24:40,220
right off the second witness estimated

495
00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:43,040
the speed of the object 20 to 30 miles

496
00:24:48,850 --> 00:24:46,490
per hour and now it just about be right

497
00:24:51,700 --> 00:24:48,860
picked up what's going to 30 miles an

498
00:24:55,450 --> 00:24:51,710
hour it would have taken it about 15

499
00:24:57,370 --> 00:24:55,460
minutes to go eight miles but anyway I

500
00:25:01,540 --> 00:24:57,380
just think there's a really interesting

501
00:25:03,130 --> 00:25:01,550
case because of the two witnesses right

502
00:25:05,620 --> 00:25:03,140
right well you've got that some

503
00:25:07,660 --> 00:25:05,630
corroboration there too now do you get

504
00:25:09,540 --> 00:25:07,670
those kind of cases very often where

505
00:25:12,700 --> 00:25:09,550
you've got two different witnesses

506
00:25:15,100 --> 00:25:12,710
within roughly the same approximate time

507
00:25:17,110 --> 00:25:15,110
frame at different locations unconnected

508
00:25:18,580 --> 00:25:17,120
by seeing essentially the same thing or

509
00:25:20,810 --> 00:25:18,590
is this the only instance you've come

510
00:25:23,419 --> 00:25:20,820
across that oh no I

511
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:23,429
I would say that's the only one but

512
00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:26,250
they're relatively rare got it okay I

513
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:27,809
would like to say we get more of them

514
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:30,090
because those are the good really good

515
00:25:36,009 --> 00:25:32,610
cases when you get I've got an even

516
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:36,019
better one coming up here I have one

517
00:25:43,940 --> 00:25:41,970
where I had two witnesses certainly at

518
00:25:46,009 --> 00:25:43,950
the same object at the same and they

519
00:25:48,110 --> 00:25:46,019
weren't driving well one was driving but

520
00:25:51,350 --> 00:25:48,120
he had stopped his car and the other one

521
00:25:52,879 --> 00:25:51,360
wasn't driving at all and the

522
00:25:55,369 --> 00:25:52,889
interesting thing is these are the kind

523
00:25:58,759 --> 00:25:55,379
of cases that I really like when you

524
00:26:01,369 --> 00:25:58,769
have two people together that know each

525
00:26:02,690 --> 00:26:01,379
other seeing the same thing you know

526
00:26:04,519 --> 00:26:02,700
that there's a chance they're

527
00:26:08,060 --> 00:26:04,529
collaborating on what their story is

528
00:26:11,180 --> 00:26:08,070
right up to some degree and they may not

529
00:26:13,399 --> 00:26:11,190
be intentionally trying to make up story

530
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:13,409
and agreeing on it it just happens

531
00:26:18,590 --> 00:26:14,970
because they talk about it and they may

532
00:26:22,999 --> 00:26:18,600
agree on some details but I have another

533
00:26:27,529 --> 00:26:23,009
case which is from 2003 should talk

534
00:26:29,659 --> 00:26:27,539
about that one now absolutely okay so

535
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:29,669
this was one of my earlier cases it's

536
00:26:36,980 --> 00:26:32,970
not in the move on database because it

537
00:26:42,350 --> 00:26:36,990
predates the current CMS system but this

538
00:26:46,220 --> 00:26:42,360
was a congressional office 20 in 2003 at

539
00:26:48,879 --> 00:26:46,230
about 10:30 p.m. a gentleman was driving

540
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:48,889
west on Southeast Division in Gresham

541
00:26:54,049 --> 00:26:51,090
which is one of the main arteries that

542
00:26:56,360 --> 00:26:54,059
goes east and west and he saw a bright

543
00:26:59,869 --> 00:26:56,370
light hovering over the treetops on the

544
00:27:03,560 --> 00:26:59,879
top of a hill just two off to his left

545
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:03,570
on an angle to his left and he he was

546
00:27:06,950 --> 00:27:05,250
watching it as he was waiting at a red

547
00:27:08,539 --> 00:27:06,960
light he was thinking that's a kind of a

548
00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:08,549
strange looking light I wonder what it

549
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:10,860
is he thought it was first he thought of

550
00:27:13,940 --> 00:27:12,330
as a plane but then he said wait a

551
00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:13,950
minute it's kind of hanging there it's

552
00:27:18,889 --> 00:27:16,980
not moving so he drove a few blocks

553
00:27:20,570 --> 00:27:18,899
after the law changed he drove a few

554
00:27:22,460 --> 00:27:20,580
blocks and he kept looking to see if he

555
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:22,470
gets bought it and he would see it

556
00:27:26,659 --> 00:27:24,090
between the trees and then he would not

557
00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:26,669
see it because it was moving and finally

558
00:27:31,580 --> 00:27:28,500
he decided oh I'm just gonna go check it

559
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:31,590
out so he turn makes a left turn goes

560
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:33,840
into the neighborhood goes a couple

561
00:27:38,380 --> 00:27:34,850
blocks in and

562
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:38,390
it's another left turn and there it is

563
00:27:42,700 --> 00:27:39,530
right in front of him

564
00:27:45,130 --> 00:27:42,710
he's looking down the street straight

565
00:27:48,070 --> 00:27:45,140
toward the east and the object is about

566
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:48,080
a block and a half away it's just a big

567
00:27:52,540 --> 00:27:49,850
black triangle it's just sitting there

568
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:52,550
in the air just he said he couldn't

569
00:27:57,580 --> 00:27:55,010
understand how it could sit still in the

570
00:27:58,750 --> 00:27:57,590
air like that because it wasn't like if

571
00:28:02,350 --> 00:27:58,760
you if you know anything about

572
00:28:04,570 --> 00:28:02,360
helicopters when they hover they don't

573
00:28:07,660 --> 00:28:04,580
sit still right right right

574
00:28:10,810 --> 00:28:07,670
they waver back and forth and and they

575
00:28:13,510 --> 00:28:10,820
make a lot of noise - oh they make a lot

576
00:28:16,090 --> 00:28:13,520
of noise and they also they move around

577
00:28:18,010 --> 00:28:16,100
there's a reason for that but I don't

578
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:18,020
want to get into all the details at this

579
00:28:23,860 --> 00:28:21,470
point but he he looked at this from home

580
00:28:27,970 --> 00:28:23,870
news rather stunned and then he realized

581
00:28:30,010 --> 00:28:27,980
he wait a minute I have a camera in the

582
00:28:33,610 --> 00:28:30,020
back seat and he thought it was back

583
00:28:36,580 --> 00:28:33,620
like in the footwell of the rear seat

584
00:28:38,380 --> 00:28:36,590
area so he reaches back and he's trying

585
00:28:43,530 --> 00:28:38,390
to find a camera and just then the

586
00:28:47,050 --> 00:28:43,540
object made a a flat rotating turn and

587
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:47,060
moved swiftly off to the to his left

588
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:50,330
toward the north and he said it was

589
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:51,890
amazing because it's a bear it was a

590
00:28:59,400 --> 00:28:55,450
very smooth it just went from stopped to

591
00:29:04,840 --> 00:28:59,410
suddenly moving without any sign of

592
00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:04,850
acceleration no sound and no exhauster

593
00:29:10,570 --> 00:29:09,320
any some engine propulsion so he drove

594
00:29:13,060 --> 00:29:10,580
up to the corner

595
00:29:15,310 --> 00:29:13,070
it's got ready to turn left and he saw

596
00:29:18,130 --> 00:29:15,320
people on the street looking and

597
00:29:21,370 --> 00:29:18,140
pointing at this object and he tried to

598
00:29:23,140 --> 00:29:21,380
decide what to do he he said he he made

599
00:29:25,540 --> 00:29:23,150
the choice to try to follow the object

600
00:29:26,860 --> 00:29:25,550
and later he regretted he said I should

601
00:29:28,780 --> 00:29:26,870
have stopped and talked to the people

602
00:29:32,530 --> 00:29:28,790
right because when he tried to follow

603
00:29:34,210 --> 00:29:32,540
the object in his car he had speed bumps

604
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:34,220
on the street and everything slowed him

605
00:29:38,830 --> 00:29:36,490
down he got to the corner and it was a

606
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:38,840
intersection with no light he had to

607
00:29:43,930 --> 00:29:41,090
wait for traffic and this object just

608
00:29:45,580 --> 00:29:43,940
zoom not to the northwest and pretty

609
00:29:47,530 --> 00:29:45,590
soon it just was so far away you can

610
00:29:50,010 --> 00:29:47,540
really see it except for some distant

611
00:29:55,270 --> 00:29:50,020
red lights

612
00:29:58,810 --> 00:29:55,280
meanwhile when I heard about this case I

613
00:30:02,080 --> 00:29:58,820
talked the guy and it turns out he was a

614
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:02,090
professional animator and illustrator uh

615
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:06,050
you know graphic artist okay he drew me

616
00:30:13,060 --> 00:30:10,850
a beautiful wireframe rendition about

617
00:30:15,850 --> 00:30:13,070
what this object look like you know a

618
00:30:17,890 --> 00:30:15,860
triangular object with three circles at

619
00:30:19,930 --> 00:30:17,900
the corners which to him represented the

620
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:19,940
lights that he saw pointed downward

621
00:30:28,770 --> 00:30:24,080
right and so I took that picture and I

622
00:30:31,150 --> 00:30:28,780
made a poster a flyer that I put up on

623
00:30:32,590 --> 00:30:31,160
the utility poles around the

624
00:30:34,930 --> 00:30:32,600
neighborhood trying to see if I could

625
00:30:36,940 --> 00:30:34,940
find any other people because this is my

626
00:30:41,950 --> 00:30:36,950
neighborhood I live in Gresham which is

627
00:30:43,660 --> 00:30:41,960
a suburb of Portland so I only live

628
00:30:46,690 --> 00:30:43,670
about maybe a mile from where this

629
00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:46,700
occurred so I I put some of these

630
00:30:52,300 --> 00:30:49,610
posters up around the neighborhood and

631
00:30:55,330 --> 00:30:52,310
at first you know I got a bunch of crank

632
00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:55,340
calls and such and then finally got one

633
00:31:01,390 --> 00:30:57,650
call from a woman who says you know I

634
00:31:05,020 --> 00:31:01,400
think I saw the same thing that is on

635
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:05,030
your your flyer so I went talk to her

636
00:31:09,490 --> 00:31:07,490
and her story is this she was sitting

637
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:09,500
out in new yard preparing for a yard

638
00:31:14,650 --> 00:31:11,930
sale because this was August 29th that

639
00:31:16,450 --> 00:31:14,660
year it was the Friday before Labor Day

640
00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:16,460
and they were gonna have a Labor Day

641
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:19,280
weekend yard sale so she was getting all

642
00:31:28,530 --> 00:31:22,250
her stuff ready and and she was sitting

643
00:31:32,230 --> 00:31:28,540
outside and all of a sudden a something

644
00:31:34,690 --> 00:31:32,240
flew over her and she could feel it

645
00:31:38,530 --> 00:31:34,700
because she had a pacemaker and she said

646
00:31:42,180 --> 00:31:38,540
it it made her pacemaker act up as if

647
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:42,190
she got too close to a magnetometer and

648
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:45,050
she looked up and saw this triangular

649
00:31:50,110 --> 00:31:46,730
object go over with the three lights on

650
00:31:54,010 --> 00:31:50,120
the bottom and it moved swiftly over to

651
00:31:56,230 --> 00:31:54,020
where the the tall trees were about two

652
00:31:58,420 --> 00:31:56,240
blocks away from her and it just stopped

653
00:32:01,230 --> 00:31:58,430
and hovered there and she said it

654
00:32:02,530 --> 00:32:01,240
hovered there for several seconds and

655
00:32:04,690 --> 00:32:02,540
then

656
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:04,700
all of a sudden it she said she thought

657
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:07,130
it just disappeared she wasn't sure if

658
00:32:13,180 --> 00:32:09,290
it moved away and was hidden by the

659
00:32:15,820 --> 00:32:13,190
trees or if it just uh just disappeared

660
00:32:20,710 --> 00:32:15,830
now I'll tell you these neighborhood has

661
00:32:23,350 --> 00:32:20,720
a lot of tall Douglas fir trees which is

662
00:32:25,870 --> 00:32:23,360
a very compliment a tree in this part of

663
00:32:30,220 --> 00:32:25,880
the country and they're they're usually

664
00:32:32,530 --> 00:32:30,230
a run either 75 to 100 feet tall and so

665
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:32,540
this object just sort of disappeared

666
00:32:38,530 --> 00:32:35,690
behind these trees in my estimation and

667
00:32:45,670 --> 00:32:38,540
she couldn't see it anymore

668
00:32:49,750 --> 00:32:45,680
but the same 8 same time basically for

669
00:32:51,250 --> 00:32:49,760
these two witnesses stories and I went

670
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:51,260
out and did some measurements and I was

671
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:53,210
able to figure out just about where this

672
00:32:58,900 --> 00:32:56,450
object was by doing a triangulation

673
00:33:01,180 --> 00:32:58,910
calculations okay and I came up with a

674
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:01,190
size of somewhere in the neighborhood of

675
00:33:08,050 --> 00:33:04,930
70 to 90 feet of the object and

676
00:33:12,610 --> 00:33:08,060
elevation of 5 to 700 feet above ground

677
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:12,620
level okay and that's that's based on

678
00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:16,130
the angular elevation estimates by both

679
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:18,050
witnesses and the compass directions

680
00:33:23,410 --> 00:33:21,440
given me by both witnesses the first

681
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:23,420
gentleman he was looking straight down a

682
00:33:27,970 --> 00:33:26,090
street which went straight east so I had

683
00:33:31,420 --> 00:33:27,980
a real easy time with the construction

684
00:33:33,190 --> 00:33:31,430
there the other witness what I did was i

685
00:33:35,860 --> 00:33:33,200
sat with her in the yard where she had

686
00:33:40,980 --> 00:33:35,870
been and I said okay you point to where

687
00:33:46,090 --> 00:33:40,990
you saw it using some trees and other

688
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:46,100
objects in local area as reference

689
00:33:54,820 --> 00:33:49,010
points we were able to get an angle for

690
00:33:57,340 --> 00:33:54,830
Earth okay in summation in order to do

691
00:34:01,060 --> 00:33:57,350
the triangulation that's kind of rare to

692
00:34:03,700 --> 00:34:01,070
get that good up the to witness case

693
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:03,710
from separate people but I was very

694
00:34:10,409 --> 00:34:06,970
fortunate to have had a case like that

695
00:34:13,270 --> 00:34:10,419
definitely now I've got some video and

696
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:13,280
you want me to go ahead and run that

697
00:34:16,450 --> 00:34:15,200
and what I'm gonna do is want to run it

698
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:16,460
real quick I've got to make a couple

699
00:34:20,470 --> 00:34:18,890
adjustments on volume because you

700
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:20,480
suggested it would be best to kill the

701
00:34:25,630 --> 00:34:22,130
volume on this so I'm gonna run that now

702
00:34:27,909 --> 00:34:25,640
and yeah if you could tell the folks a

703
00:34:29,470 --> 00:34:27,919
little bit good yeah dad do you want to

704
00:34:30,820 --> 00:34:29,480
do like a little bit of a lead in in

705
00:34:32,350 --> 00:34:30,830
terms of what the folks are gonna see

706
00:34:34,180 --> 00:34:32,360
and give a little bit of background on

707
00:34:36,340 --> 00:34:34,190
this case first or do you think it's the

708
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:36,350
oldest run yeah go ahead I give some

709
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:38,810
background it's first this is fairly new

710
00:34:45,220 --> 00:34:42,650
this is from January 12 2019 at about 11

711
00:34:47,890 --> 00:34:45,230
p.m. at the event started 11 p.m. but

712
00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:47,900
but they stated that just went on for

713
00:34:55,570 --> 00:34:51,530
about five hours so this was in Gaston

714
00:35:01,450 --> 00:34:55,580
Oregon which is a small town a very

715
00:35:05,230 --> 00:35:01,460
rural area out I figure it's about 23

716
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:05,240
miles west-southwest of Portland south

717
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:07,130
beyond Hillsborough and B Burton which

718
00:35:14,890 --> 00:35:10,690
are much bigger or well known of suburbs

719
00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:14,900
so what happened was the husband and

720
00:35:20,470 --> 00:35:16,730
wife and I I don't know who saw it first

721
00:35:25,990 --> 00:35:20,480
but they were watching this strange

722
00:35:29,220 --> 00:35:26,000
object in the sky and it was appeared to

723
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:29,230
be changing colors and pulsating and

724
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:34,130
they got a phone out and started it's

725
00:35:40,060 --> 00:35:38,000
shooting photos and videos of it and I

726
00:35:42,010 --> 00:35:40,070
actually got three videos and a whole

727
00:35:45,340 --> 00:35:42,020
bunch of photos from them but I think

728
00:35:47,620 --> 00:35:45,350
the one of the video was that was the

729
00:35:53,260 --> 00:35:47,630
clearest now what you're gonna see is

730
00:35:56,620 --> 00:35:53,270
simply a an orb of a round object with

731
00:36:00,310 --> 00:35:56,630
lights changing light patterns that seem

732
00:36:06,190 --> 00:36:00,320
to be coming from inside it and in they

733
00:36:09,250 --> 00:36:06,200
pulsate they change colors if I I try to

734
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:09,260
try to see if I can imagine what kind of

735
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:12,050
normal ordinary object be responsible

736
00:36:17,130 --> 00:36:14,450
for this it's certainly not any kind of

737
00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:17,140
astronomical object we know about

738
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:19,940
there's just nothing that we know of

739
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:21,530
like that

740
00:36:29,710 --> 00:36:27,170
if if it's some kind of a an a drone

741
00:36:32,410 --> 00:36:29,720
something I I have no idea who could

742
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:32,420
make a drone sit up there for that long

743
00:36:38,050 --> 00:36:36,050
time considering the battery life on

744
00:36:41,140 --> 00:36:38,060
some of these drones and also to have it

745
00:36:42,940 --> 00:36:41,150
look like that because you know we know

746
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:42,950
what most of these hobbyist drones look

747
00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:44,720
like they look like little quad copters

748
00:36:49,900 --> 00:36:47,090
or something I don't know how many that

749
00:36:55,630 --> 00:36:49,910
would have an appearance like this

750
00:36:58,300 --> 00:36:55,640
object um and it it was up there from

751
00:36:59,680 --> 00:36:58,310
for a long time it looks like besides

752
00:37:01,300 --> 00:36:59,690
the changing colors it looks like

753
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:01,310
there's some sort of energy source

754
00:37:08,530 --> 00:37:06,290
inside it's pulsing out the little beams

755
00:37:11,230 --> 00:37:08,540
of like a plasma energy or something

756
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:11,240
that but they're all contained inside

757
00:37:17,770 --> 00:37:15,530
the the outer perimeter of this circular

758
00:37:19,810 --> 00:37:17,780
object okay so all right let me run this

759
00:37:21,220 --> 00:37:19,820
now and I'm gonna ask you and chant to

760
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:21,230
be quiet I'm gonna be quiet here now

761
00:38:00,020 --> 00:37:23,570
because I'm gonna kill our volume so

762
00:39:31,780 --> 00:39:27,450
you

763
00:39:33,490 --> 00:39:31,790
yeah telling us about this video

764
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:33,500
compared to some others that you've seen

765
00:39:37,140 --> 00:39:35,450
that are kind of similar now but you

766
00:39:40,420 --> 00:39:37,150
really like this one in particular

767
00:39:46,450 --> 00:39:40,430
well this one's closer appears to be

768
00:39:50,170 --> 00:39:46,460
closer it's it's so much you know the

769
00:39:53,350 --> 00:39:50,180
the the object looks so much bigger most

770
00:39:56,260 --> 00:39:53,360
of them it's it's a very small almost

771
00:40:00,540 --> 00:39:56,270
like a point source light maybe just a

772
00:40:06,130 --> 00:40:00,550
little bigger that's changing colors or

773
00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:06,140
flashing strobing and so forth but this

774
00:40:12,330 --> 00:40:08,300
one is so much closer than the others

775
00:40:16,450 --> 00:40:12,340
you can really see something and what

776
00:40:20,350 --> 00:40:16,460
what I what this one video nailed home

777
00:40:22,630 --> 00:40:20,360
for me was that all right I'm getting

778
00:40:24,430 --> 00:40:22,640
other videos like this they're not as

779
00:40:27,340 --> 00:40:24,440
good as this one but they're like this

780
00:40:31,450 --> 00:40:27,350
and I cannot explain them these little

781
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:31,460
cell phones their small aperture isn't

782
00:40:37,150 --> 00:40:34,400
good enough at capturing light to really

783
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:37,160
do a good job of taking photos of stars

784
00:40:43,330 --> 00:40:40,010
right even Venus isn't gonna show up

785
00:40:46,210 --> 00:40:43,340
that well unless you set a time exposure

786
00:40:47,230 --> 00:40:46,220
on cell phone right right exactly

787
00:40:53,050 --> 00:40:47,240
exactly

788
00:40:55,750 --> 00:40:53,060
so so these these strange pulsating orbs

789
00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:55,760
changing colors there's something else

790
00:41:00,730 --> 00:40:57,890
and I don't know what they could be

791
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:00,740
I've I tried reasoning that it could be

792
00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:04,370
drones or something but I can't come up

793
00:41:10,390 --> 00:41:07,130
with a reasonable explanation that fits

794
00:41:13,090 --> 00:41:10,400
what we know about hobbyist drones and

795
00:41:15,550 --> 00:41:13,100
things like that so that's why I say

796
00:41:18,010 --> 00:41:15,560
this is another kind of UFO right I have

797
00:41:20,470 --> 00:41:18,020
a question I wanted to know Tom have you

798
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:20,480
had this forensic ly analyzed this video

799
00:41:27,340 --> 00:41:24,410
or any of the material I haven't had it

800
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:27,350
forensic ly analysed are you looking

801
00:41:33,310 --> 00:41:29,330
forward to considering that possibly

802
00:41:36,730 --> 00:41:33,320
well let's put it this way my my

803
00:41:40,359 --> 00:41:36,740
colleague Keith Raoul who maintains our

804
00:41:42,749 --> 00:41:40,369
our website Oregon MUFON comm he's

805
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:42,759
fairly accomplished digital photographer

806
00:41:47,859 --> 00:41:45,410
he and I have both spent a long time

807
00:41:51,759 --> 00:41:47,869
looking at these videos and trying to

808
00:41:53,650 --> 00:41:51,769
come up with an explanation but one of

809
00:41:55,930 --> 00:41:53,660
the problems we haven't me fond is we

810
00:41:59,349 --> 00:41:55,940
have a few people that are the official

811
00:42:01,470 --> 00:41:59,359
photo analysts they are pretty well

812
00:42:06,849 --> 00:42:01,480
backlogged with a huge number of

813
00:42:08,769 --> 00:42:06,859
requests or for an analysis so that's

814
00:42:13,150 --> 00:42:08,779
the main reason I've never had one of

815
00:42:15,579 --> 00:42:13,160
them look at it and as far as forensic

816
00:42:16,059 --> 00:42:15,589
analysis I'm not sure who else to turn

817
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:16,069
to

818
00:42:25,630 --> 00:42:21,170
so no haven't do you have any other

819
00:42:32,470 --> 00:42:25,640
cases you'd like to bring up yeah I have

820
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:32,480
some here I had a gentleman who was out

821
00:42:41,049 --> 00:42:35,839
camping with his grandson and this

822
00:42:44,529 --> 00:42:41,059
happened on August 1st 2018 he was up in

823
00:42:49,930 --> 00:42:44,539
the Cascade Mountains along the Pacific

824
00:42:52,450 --> 00:42:49,940
Coast Pacific Crest Trail and campground

825
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:52,460
location was at a lake that's about nine

826
00:42:57,220 --> 00:42:54,650
miles east-northeast of Brighton Bush

827
00:43:00,819 --> 00:42:57,230
Hot Springs Brighton Bush hot springs

828
00:43:02,890 --> 00:43:00,829
it's kind of a famous little place where

829
00:43:05,349 --> 00:43:02,900
people like to go it's a little a small

830
00:43:08,799 --> 00:43:05,359
resort town it's not an official City or

831
00:43:12,609 --> 00:43:08,809
anything but it's a location that's on a

832
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:12,619
map but they weren't ever there for the

833
00:43:16,779 --> 00:43:14,690
hot springs they were just camping and

834
00:43:22,180 --> 00:43:16,789
they just happen to be in a spot that's

835
00:43:24,029 --> 00:43:22,190
about nine miles over there and so the

836
00:43:25,650 --> 00:43:24,039
gentleman was sitting by the campfire

837
00:43:28,989 --> 00:43:25,660
meditating Oh

838
00:43:32,410 --> 00:43:28,999
then he decided to shine his LED

839
00:43:35,349 --> 00:43:32,420
flashlight up in his sky now this was

840
00:43:38,380 --> 00:43:35,359
about 9:00 p.m. he's that this event

841
00:43:44,229 --> 00:43:38,390
started he's shining his light back in

842
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:44,239
this guy and after he got tired he went

843
00:43:50,079 --> 00:43:47,930
back to meditating then he sensed the

844
00:43:52,569 --> 00:43:50,089
presence and he opened his eyes and saw

845
00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:52,579
a huge black triangle hovering some

846
00:43:59,079 --> 00:43:54,319
fifty to sixty feet east of

847
00:44:01,079 --> 00:43:59,089
campsite um he shined shined a light at

848
00:44:04,689 --> 00:44:01,089
the object but the black exterior

849
00:44:06,549 --> 00:44:04,699
absorbed all the light and he walked

850
00:44:09,549 --> 00:44:06,559
toward the object and as he approached

851
00:44:12,939 --> 00:44:09,559
it he felt a vibration or energy that

852
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:12,949
was pulsating in his body and it was a

853
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:17,440
very strong feeling and he he started to

854
00:44:26,229 --> 00:44:22,249
feel uncomfortable with it and so he

855
00:44:29,589 --> 00:44:26,239
backed off he just sat out there for a

856
00:44:31,150 --> 00:44:29,599
long time after about three hours he got

857
00:44:33,479 --> 00:44:31,160
tired of watching this thing because

858
00:44:36,519 --> 00:44:33,489
nothing was happening it was emitting

859
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:36,529
sometimes emitting flashes of light and

860
00:44:46,329 --> 00:44:41,650
then he saw was a client pulses of

861
00:44:47,259 --> 00:44:46,339
electricity that lit up around perimeter

862
00:44:50,709 --> 00:44:47,269
of the object

863
00:44:52,569 --> 00:44:50,719
it had three white lights on the bottom

864
00:44:58,029 --> 00:44:52,579
at the corners like a lot of the black

865
00:45:01,599 --> 00:44:58,039
triangles do and he just it was just an

866
00:45:04,499 --> 00:45:01,609
amazing experience for him it's a single

867
00:45:09,099 --> 00:45:04,509
witness case but still it's it's uh I

868
00:45:12,430 --> 00:45:09,109
met the guy he's very very credible and

869
00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:12,440
I think it was quite an experience for

870
00:45:20,109 --> 00:45:16,849
him um I wanted to make a comment and

871
00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:20,119
that is because I interview a lot of

872
00:45:26,739 --> 00:45:23,930
people like Frank I get a input from

873
00:45:31,150 --> 00:45:26,749
folks from all over the world and I have

874
00:45:33,189 --> 00:45:31,160
heard many folks share with me that they

875
00:45:37,479 --> 00:45:33,199
have felt some kind of vibration or

876
00:45:40,930 --> 00:45:37,489
energy from what they feel was not a UFO

877
00:45:43,180 --> 00:45:40,940
but and et related craft and it's just

878
00:45:45,430 --> 00:45:43,190
interesting how that could be considered

879
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:45,440
a common denominator with some sightings

880
00:45:51,749 --> 00:45:49,130
and also I found it fascinating when you

881
00:45:56,829 --> 00:45:51,759
mentioned that a person that had a

882
00:45:59,289 --> 00:45:56,839
pacemaker felt some kind of something

883
00:46:02,469 --> 00:45:59,299
regarding that and it could have been in

884
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:02,479
relation to the sighting of the UFO yeah

885
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:06,319
I got my attention too yeah yeah I know

886
00:46:10,359 --> 00:46:07,970
I think you know it was

887
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:10,369
some kind of magnetic interference that

888
00:46:21,180 --> 00:46:15,530
that would have caused that effect young

889
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:21,190
in in as as a UFO investigator I am

890
00:46:30,430 --> 00:46:25,490
trying to be as objective as possible so

891
00:46:35,470 --> 00:46:30,440
what happens is I I I try not to make

892
00:46:37,630 --> 00:46:35,480
assumptions about things people have you

893
00:46:40,960 --> 00:46:37,640
know people relate their experiences to

894
00:46:43,599 --> 00:46:40,970
us and part sometimes these experiences

895
00:46:45,849 --> 00:46:43,609
are fairly personal especially when it's

896
00:46:48,370 --> 00:46:45,859
a case like this last one I talked about

897
00:46:51,790 --> 00:46:48,380
we consider a close encounter the object

898
00:46:55,390 --> 00:46:51,800
was closer than 500 feet to the to the

899
00:46:58,240 --> 00:46:55,400
person and he experienced something that

900
00:47:00,910 --> 00:46:58,250
might be considered an interaction on

901
00:47:04,720 --> 00:47:00,920
some level with the object just feeling

902
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:04,730
the energy that he felt he felt and he

903
00:47:10,740 --> 00:47:08,330
told me that he felt like the object was

904
00:47:13,510 --> 00:47:10,750
aware of him knew he was there

905
00:47:16,570 --> 00:47:13,520
maybe knew what he was thinking at one

906
00:47:20,620 --> 00:47:16,580
point he got the idea that since he was

907
00:47:22,810 --> 00:47:20,630
we staring a handgun that he should fire

908
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:22,820
a shot at the object just to see what

909
00:47:27,550 --> 00:47:25,130
would happened to see if the bullet

910
00:47:30,339 --> 00:47:27,560
would bounce off or whatever but as soon

911
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:30,349
as he thought of that it the idea came

912
00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:32,240
to him that oh that would be a terrible

913
00:47:38,770 --> 00:47:36,530
idea so he didn't do it and this is this

914
00:47:42,099 --> 00:47:38,780
is the kind of thing that that you run

915
00:47:49,210 --> 00:47:42,109
into all the time um I will tell you

916
00:47:53,740 --> 00:47:49,220
that my my friend Keith Rao who runs our

917
00:47:56,380 --> 00:47:53,750
website Oregon MUFON comm he has studied

918
00:47:58,980 --> 00:47:56,390
deeply the subject of transpersonal

919
00:48:03,540 --> 00:47:58,990
world and transpersonal psychology and

920
00:48:07,500 --> 00:48:03,550
this is a branch of psychology that is

921
00:48:12,190 --> 00:48:07,510
that is a modern attempt to explore the

922
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:12,200
paranormal in a way that that is semi

923
00:48:20,079 --> 00:48:16,010
acceptable to academics because you know

924
00:48:21,730 --> 00:48:20,089
the mainstream academic world does not

925
00:48:26,380 --> 00:48:21,740
want to deal with paranoia

926
00:48:30,540 --> 00:48:26,390
subjects but he has studied this very

927
00:48:34,180 --> 00:48:30,550
deeply and he believes that UFOs are

928
00:48:37,750 --> 00:48:34,190
part of this this transpersonal world

929
00:48:39,940 --> 00:48:37,760
and if you listen to him and or rebut

930
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:39,950
he's written he'll understand where he's

931
00:48:45,010 --> 00:48:42,890
coming from because they do things that

932
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:45,020
don't make sense in our objective

933
00:48:52,359 --> 00:48:47,570
reality sometimes they materialize and

934
00:48:54,430 --> 00:48:52,369
dematerialize they can perform things

935
00:48:57,760 --> 00:48:54,440
you know they they make maneuvers in the

936
00:49:00,160 --> 00:48:57,770
air that are not reasonable for aircraft

937
00:49:03,990 --> 00:49:00,170
as we know them are you know physical

938
00:49:08,170 --> 00:49:04,000
human built aircraft so what exactly

939
00:49:10,660 --> 00:49:08,180
that means I don't have the answers to

940
00:49:12,970 --> 00:49:10,670
that all I can say is that that people

941
00:49:16,750 --> 00:49:12,980
that have deep deep and personal

942
00:49:19,420 --> 00:49:16,760
experiences with UFOs often these

943
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:19,430
experiences entail something like

944
00:49:26,740 --> 00:49:23,330
telepathy or actual what we call mind

945
00:49:28,990 --> 00:49:26,750
control our and you've heard of

946
00:49:30,820 --> 00:49:29,000
abduction cases I didn't go into any

947
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:30,830
abduction cases although I do get

948
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:33,530
reports of abductions I didn't go into

949
00:49:41,190 --> 00:49:35,810
them because they're sometimes very hard

950
00:49:44,050 --> 00:49:41,200
to talk about the the details can be a

951
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:44,060
kind of wild and they might be a little

952
00:49:51,820 --> 00:49:46,640
difficult for people to talk about or

953
00:49:54,670 --> 00:49:51,830
think about plus I I accept people's

954
00:49:56,560 --> 00:49:54,680
stories for what they are very rarely

955
00:49:59,560 --> 00:49:56,570
have I had a case where I thought the

956
00:50:01,810 --> 00:49:59,570
person was actually being deceitful in

957
00:50:05,410 --> 00:50:01,820
some way they're actually trying to pull

958
00:50:07,599 --> 00:50:05,420
one over on me and I don't I don't like

959
00:50:10,420 --> 00:50:07,609
to jump to conclusions that people are

960
00:50:13,120 --> 00:50:10,430
or fabricating unless I have a really

961
00:50:15,609 --> 00:50:13,130
good reason to think so so generally I

962
00:50:19,390 --> 00:50:15,619
accept people's stories at face value

963
00:50:22,620 --> 00:50:19,400
the only thing that that I do is try to

964
00:50:27,670 --> 00:50:22,630
see if there's a rational explanation

965
00:50:29,680 --> 00:50:27,680
close encounter cases or experiences

966
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:29,690
like abductions usually there is no

967
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:33,170
alternative explanation unless I really

968
00:50:40,150 --> 00:50:35,930
feel the person has a mental problem

969
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:40,160
which I run into occasionally you know

970
00:50:47,500 --> 00:50:42,770
two persons really seems to be operating

971
00:50:48,269 --> 00:50:47,510
on a on a delusional level I have to

972
00:50:51,519 --> 00:50:48,279
take that into consideration

973
00:50:54,519 --> 00:50:51,529
consideration but I actually haven't had

974
00:50:57,480 --> 00:50:54,529
that many cases of people that are like

975
00:51:01,019 --> 00:50:57,490
that I could probably count on one hand

976
00:51:05,380 --> 00:51:01,029
the cases that I've had of that nature

977
00:51:07,240 --> 00:51:05,390
over the last 20 years Tom really quick

978
00:51:10,630 --> 00:51:07,250
a quick question for you about the cases

979
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:10,640
that you do get identified what is the

980
00:51:17,620 --> 00:51:13,930
usual explanation is it aircraft

981
00:51:20,799 --> 00:51:17,630
misidentifications astronomical

982
00:51:22,569 --> 00:51:20,809
phenomena and what how do you usually

983
00:51:26,190 --> 00:51:22,579
solve these were that word of the

984
00:51:37,329 --> 00:51:26,200
solution that we end up number one

985
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:37,339
satellites recently you know SpaceX sure

986
00:51:43,720 --> 00:51:41,210
turn up all these the Starling

987
00:51:46,900 --> 00:51:43,730
satellites right well people saw these

988
00:51:49,630 --> 00:51:46,910
and we got a lot of reports they said oh

989
00:51:52,870 --> 00:51:49,640
there's a whole bunch of UFOs on a long

990
00:51:55,240 --> 00:51:52,880
line going across the sky well we have

991
00:51:57,490 --> 00:51:55,250
resources like there's a website called

992
00:52:00,250 --> 00:51:57,500
heavens above you can go and look up

993
00:52:03,730 --> 00:52:00,260
satellites and when when we have a good

994
00:52:07,740 --> 00:52:03,740
match for the location the time and

995
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:07,750
direction of what the person describes

996
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:10,970
and we know pretty well that we're

997
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:16,490
looking at satellites the ISS is very

998
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:18,410
bright and when people haven't seen it

999
00:52:25,720 --> 00:52:21,130
before sometimes they overreact when

1000
00:52:29,769 --> 00:52:25,730
when they send up a supply ship to dock

1001
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:29,779
with the ISS like a shuttle or something

1002
00:52:36,609 --> 00:52:32,930
to take astronauts up and bring other

1003
00:52:40,630 --> 00:52:36,619
astronauts back or to supply the ship

1004
00:52:43,660 --> 00:52:40,640
they have a there's a Russian progress M

1005
00:52:46,569 --> 00:52:43,670
module that is docked with the space

1006
00:52:49,059 --> 00:52:46,579
shuttle I mean I'm sorry the docked with

1007
00:52:49,690 --> 00:52:49,069
the space station and when another ship

1008
00:52:51,540 --> 00:52:49,700
comes up

1009
00:52:54,550 --> 00:52:51,550
that has docked and they take the

1010
00:52:57,610 --> 00:52:54,560
progress em module and they park it in

1011
00:52:59,440 --> 00:52:57,620
orbit some distance from ISS right and

1012
00:53:01,630 --> 00:52:59,450
it's so that what people see them as

1013
00:53:04,060 --> 00:53:01,640
they see the ISS and this other object

1014
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:04,070
crossing the sky at the same time and

1015
00:53:09,070 --> 00:53:06,170
the ones right behind the other and they

1016
00:53:12,820 --> 00:53:09,080
say oh I just saw two UFOs once chasing

1017
00:53:18,790 --> 00:53:12,830
the other right okay no number two the

1018
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:18,800
planet Venus Venus is spectacular when

1019
00:53:24,370 --> 00:53:21,770
people see it it looks just beautiful

1020
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:24,380
and sometimes they overreact they think

1021
00:53:30,510 --> 00:53:28,130
it's you know a UFO when you can

1022
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:30,520
establish they're seeing the same thing

1023
00:53:37,180 --> 00:53:33,410
more than one night in a row in the same

1024
00:53:39,130 --> 00:53:37,190
place and you can say okay you're

1025
00:53:41,530 --> 00:53:39,140
looking just in the right direction at

1026
00:53:43,420 --> 00:53:41,540
the right angular elevation for this to

1027
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:43,430
be Venus some people don't want to

1028
00:53:47,530 --> 00:53:45,770
accept it but when we have a good match

1029
00:53:48,910 --> 00:53:47,540
we know but that's what they're seeing

1030
00:53:51,910 --> 00:53:48,920
especially if it's not moving around

1031
00:53:54,100 --> 00:53:51,920
it's just sure yeah

1032
00:53:56,110 --> 00:53:54,110
it is moving but it's just going so

1033
00:53:58,630 --> 00:53:56,120
slowly relative to the witness that it

1034
00:53:59,950 --> 00:53:58,640
doesn't look like it's moving right when

1035
00:54:02,040 --> 00:53:59,960
you're done Tom I just want to make a

1036
00:54:08,080 --> 00:54:02,050
comment about satellites but go ahead

1037
00:54:14,500 --> 00:54:08,090
all right so another and another common

1038
00:54:17,290 --> 00:54:14,510
thing is in in photographs our camp

1039
00:54:19,630 --> 00:54:17,300
camera artifacts one of the people

1040
00:54:22,990 --> 00:54:19,640
things that people will do is they'll

1041
00:54:27,390 --> 00:54:23,000
take a photo where the Sun is in in the

1042
00:54:30,790 --> 00:54:27,400
frame of the photo and most cameras

1043
00:54:33,340 --> 00:54:30,800
especially digital cameras and cell

1044
00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:33,350
phone cameras if you if you have the the

1045
00:54:41,020 --> 00:54:36,470
Sun or the moon or another really bright

1046
00:54:45,610 --> 00:54:41,030
light in the frame it creates a blob of

1047
00:54:48,190 --> 00:54:45,620
light opposite the light source the

1048
00:54:49,630 --> 00:54:48,200
bright light source and this people will

1049
00:54:51,430 --> 00:54:49,640
see this because they don't notice it

1050
00:54:52,720 --> 00:54:51,440
when they're taking the photo usually

1051
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:52,730
you're looking through their photos

1052
00:54:59,020 --> 00:54:55,010
after the fact they say oh look there's

1053
00:55:01,570 --> 00:54:59,030
a there's a blue orb in my photo and

1054
00:55:03,550 --> 00:55:01,580
then we we look at it and you know I do

1055
00:55:06,220 --> 00:55:03,560
my analysis on it

1056
00:55:08,050 --> 00:55:06,230
where the object is regard with

1057
00:55:09,720 --> 00:55:08,060
relationship to the light source and

1058
00:55:13,150 --> 00:55:09,730
then I can tell

1059
00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:13,160
hey that's this is a an artifact caused

1060
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:15,890
in your camera by having a bright light

1061
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:22,010
in the frame those are some of the most

1062
00:55:33,250 --> 00:55:26,690
common things that that people miss

1063
00:55:37,980 --> 00:55:33,260
identify I've had very few I wouldn't

1064
00:55:45,850 --> 00:55:37,990
say zero but very few weather balloons

1065
00:55:48,580 --> 00:55:45,860
and another thing is birds that are seen

1066
00:55:51,370 --> 00:55:48,590
at a strange angle especially in photos

1067
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:51,380
or insects when people are shooting

1068
00:55:57,010 --> 00:55:54,170
videos and an insect flies through the

1069
00:56:00,400 --> 00:55:57,020
frame they don't notice it when they're

1070
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:00,410
shooting a picture but it shows up and

1071
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:02,090
they say oh what's this thing that just

1072
00:56:07,540 --> 00:56:05,450
flew through the picture and I slowed it

1073
00:56:09,700 --> 00:56:07,550
down and I go frame by frame and usually

1074
00:56:13,420 --> 00:56:09,710
I can identify it because I can see the

1075
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:13,430
wings moving I can see the body and and

1076
00:56:18,970 --> 00:56:15,650
y'all hanging down or whatever depending

1077
00:56:25,000 --> 00:56:18,980
on the size bug it is that's one that

1078
00:56:26,620 --> 00:56:25,010
often come up any other questions I'm

1079
00:56:28,330 --> 00:56:26,630
actually wanted to bring up a few things

1080
00:56:29,950 --> 00:56:28,340
one is something that you I think you

1081
00:56:31,720 --> 00:56:29,960
may have brought up but you may have not

1082
00:56:33,130 --> 00:56:31,730
used the word flare but go ahead and

1083
00:56:34,960 --> 00:56:33,140
correct me if that was not what you were

1084
00:56:40,390 --> 00:56:34,970
alluding to and you're talking about

1085
00:56:42,430 --> 00:56:40,400
bright object in the lens of a picture

1086
00:56:46,540 --> 00:56:42,440
somebody wanted to take take a photo of

1087
00:56:47,860 --> 00:56:46,550
but flare and photography as Tom you

1088
00:56:51,700 --> 00:56:47,870
already know I just want to let our

1089
00:56:54,940 --> 00:56:51,710
listeners know it's a caused when it's

1090
00:56:57,250 --> 00:56:54,950
in a picture but I like signing into the

1091
00:56:58,840 --> 00:56:57,260
lens and it's light is reflected and

1092
00:57:01,030 --> 00:56:58,850
scattered into the lens causing a

1093
00:57:04,570 --> 00:57:01,040
washout or a flare artifact as you're

1094
00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:04,580
seeing artifacts on camera so or it can

1095
00:57:07,900 --> 00:57:06,770
be caused by special lens coatings also

1096
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:07,910
wanted to mention something about

1097
00:57:12,040 --> 00:57:10,000
satellites because we we did a

1098
00:57:15,310 --> 00:57:12,050
three-part special which i think was

1099
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:15,320
about six or eight hours of special over

1100
00:57:20,259 --> 00:57:17,170
a period of a week

1101
00:57:22,599 --> 00:57:20,269
regarding tools skillsets and

1102
00:57:28,779 --> 00:57:22,609
applications meaning software people can

1103
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:28,789
use to try to use an edge to capture

1104
00:57:35,349 --> 00:57:31,970
ufo-related activity and some of the

1105
00:57:36,910 --> 00:57:35,359
applications that were brought up we're

1106
00:57:39,569 --> 00:57:36,920
I'm not gonna save some of these

1107
00:57:44,670 --> 00:57:39,579
applications correctly but theodolite

1108
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:44,680
Stellarium geo Sat geo geo SAT watch

1109
00:57:50,559 --> 00:57:48,170
flightradar24 and a Tesla meter which

1110
00:57:53,319 --> 00:57:50,569
leverages iPhone Magna meters to measure

1111
00:57:57,069 --> 00:57:53,329
background radiation and there's many

1112
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:57,079
others but the caveat the disclaimer

1113
00:58:01,630 --> 00:58:00,319
that everybody from the Phoenix MUFON

1114
00:58:04,239 --> 00:58:01,640
bootcamp we had when we had Jonathan

1115
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:04,249
Dover on and I think it was Mark

1116
00:58:11,489 --> 00:58:06,890
Dantonio the chief photo analyst for

1117
00:58:14,799 --> 00:58:11,499
MUFON and and yourself are aware of is

1118
00:58:18,849 --> 00:58:14,809
no matter what satellite application you

1119
00:58:21,640 --> 00:58:18,859
use on your tap devices like a

1120
00:58:24,700 --> 00:58:21,650
smartphone or your computer just know

1121
00:58:27,729 --> 00:58:24,710
this it will not account for any

1122
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:27,739
top-secret satellites out there and so

1123
00:58:32,319 --> 00:58:30,130
if you think you're using a satellite

1124
00:58:34,690 --> 00:58:32,329
application and you know about every

1125
00:58:38,049 --> 00:58:34,700
single satellite out there you don't it

1126
00:58:40,059 --> 00:58:38,059
will not list all of them so also

1127
00:58:42,969 --> 00:58:40,069
another thing that I think rich Hoffmann

1128
00:58:45,940 --> 00:58:42,979
pointed out and that is and also Mark

1129
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:45,950
Dantonio it is completely possible to

1130
00:58:51,609 --> 00:58:47,839
see satellites and formation you might

1131
00:58:54,099 --> 00:58:51,619
see multiple ones all once moving across

1132
00:58:59,099 --> 00:58:54,109
the sky just like you're mentioning the

1133
00:59:04,059 --> 00:58:59,109
star leak for example by Elon Musk yes

1134
00:59:10,209 --> 00:59:04,069
yes I recently got a I had a case where

1135
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:10,219
I a guy saw a group of objects near the

1136
00:59:15,819 --> 00:59:12,170
moon and he thought they were coming

1137
00:59:18,279 --> 00:59:15,829
from behind the moon uh I looked I

1138
00:59:21,130 --> 00:59:18,289
looked up all the time and date in

1139
00:59:24,579 --> 00:59:21,140
direction and I found a series of

1140
00:59:26,890 --> 00:59:24,589
satellites called the flock they all had

1141
00:59:29,170 --> 00:59:26,900
a name with flock in it and in a number

1142
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:29,180
or something turned out that was a group

1143
00:59:34,330 --> 00:59:30,650
of satellites that were

1144
00:59:40,170 --> 00:59:34,340
surveillance satellites by for one of

1145
00:59:41,350 --> 00:59:40,180
our government agencies and but he he

1146
00:59:42,850 --> 00:59:41,360
misperceived

1147
00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:42,860
they were coming from behind the moon

1148
00:59:48,010 --> 00:59:45,440
just because of the angle he's looking

1149
00:59:50,890 --> 00:59:48,020
at them he had a full moon in his view

1150
00:59:52,390 --> 00:59:50,900
and made it look like they were coming

1151
00:59:54,070 --> 00:59:52,400
from behind the moon but they weren't

1152
00:59:56,710 --> 00:59:54,080
actually coming from behind the moon

1153
00:59:58,240 --> 00:59:56,720
they were just appearing in that area

1154
01:00:00,430 --> 00:59:58,250
and he thought they were coming from

1155
01:00:02,110 --> 01:00:00,440
behind the moon I was pretty sure he was

1156
01:00:04,570 --> 01:00:02,120
just seeing those satellites and and

1157
01:00:06,940 --> 01:00:04,580
everything matched up yeah without the

1158
01:00:08,050 --> 01:00:06,950
the brightness of the moon was watching

1159
01:00:09,730 --> 01:00:08,060
out the satellites when they were

1160
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:09,740
crossing across the face is that would

1161
01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:12,650
that be very that would probably be true

1162
01:00:16,330 --> 01:00:14,090
Dai I don't know that they were actually

1163
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:16,340
crossing across the face of the moon

1164
01:00:20,290 --> 01:00:18,290
they may have been going just right near

1165
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:20,300
it and but they just looked like you're

1166
01:00:25,740 --> 01:00:23,330
coming from behind it to to his from his

1167
01:00:29,500 --> 01:00:25,750
angle because when I replayed this on

1168
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:29,510
one of my astronomy apps I could see how

1169
01:00:33,100 --> 01:00:31,610
close they were to the full moon it was

1170
01:00:37,210 --> 01:00:33,110
easy to see how he could have thought

1171
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:37,220
they were coming from behind the moon so

1172
01:00:42,100 --> 01:00:39,530
uh also and I know I mentioned this a

1173
01:00:44,470 --> 01:00:42,110
little bit but there's I seek thermal

1174
01:00:47,410 --> 01:00:44,480
devices temperature and humidity devices

1175
01:00:49,210 --> 01:00:47,420
and radiation detector devices and the

1176
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:49,220
liste just right off I believe was

1177
01:00:55,810 --> 01:00:52,250
comprised by I think it was a rich

1178
01:00:57,250 --> 01:00:55,820
Hofmann had put all that together but

1179
01:01:00,550 --> 01:00:57,260
again thank you very much for having

1180
01:01:02,440 --> 01:01:00,560
mentioned those factors because one

1181
01:01:05,020 --> 01:01:02,450
thing and I've interviewed a lot of

1182
01:01:07,330 --> 01:01:05,030
people from MUFON they have set a common

1183
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:07,340
denominator like a common thread they

1184
01:01:14,380 --> 01:01:10,250
all come across on a regular basis our

1185
01:01:19,380 --> 01:01:14,390
folks who mistake venus for UFO stars in

1186
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:22,030
things that have prosaic explanations

1187
01:01:27,790 --> 01:01:25,130
flares then i wanted to maybe cover just

1188
01:01:31,750 --> 01:01:27,800
a little bit about orbs MUFON does

1189
01:01:34,690 --> 01:01:31,760
investigate orbs but we would like to

1190
01:01:38,830 --> 01:01:34,700
know from you how easy is it to rule out

1191
01:01:43,859 --> 01:01:38,840
an orb that doesn't that is related to

1192
01:01:47,190 --> 01:01:43,869
equipment or dust or bug

1193
01:01:51,390 --> 01:01:47,200
in the picture it's actually not easy

1194
01:01:56,519 --> 01:01:51,400
okay there's a lot of physical factors

1195
01:01:59,519 --> 01:01:56,529
that can be in play and if you're like I

1196
01:02:03,029 --> 01:01:59,529
saw a bunch of nighttime photos that

1197
01:02:06,480 --> 01:02:03,039
were taken in a graveyard where people

1198
01:02:10,410 --> 01:02:06,490
said that they were seeing orbs there

1199
01:02:12,569 --> 01:02:10,420
were spirit orbs but my friend Keith

1200
01:02:15,509 --> 01:02:12,579
thought that some of those could have

1201
01:02:19,170 --> 01:02:15,519
been caused by moisture because it was

1202
01:02:21,809 --> 01:02:19,180
very damp humidity was high and the

1203
01:02:25,309 --> 01:02:21,819
temperature was low so there's a lot of

1204
01:02:29,099 --> 01:02:25,319
mistiness in the area those can be very

1205
01:02:33,569 --> 01:02:29,109
tricky and it it's it's hard to come up

1206
01:02:37,079 --> 01:02:33,579
with a hundred percent conclusion you

1207
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:37,089
almost always end up with less than a

1208
01:02:44,430 --> 01:02:40,450
really strong conclusion about those

1209
01:02:48,150 --> 01:02:44,440
kind of claws so it's you know it's it

1210
01:02:49,979 --> 01:02:48,160
it's it's for one thing it a lot of

1211
01:02:53,999 --> 01:02:49,989
times if you want to prove whether you

1212
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:54,009
can take a photo with the same kind of

1213
01:02:58,440 --> 01:02:56,319
camera and the same kind of conditions

1214
01:03:01,650 --> 01:02:58,450
and get you know

1215
01:03:03,660 --> 01:03:01,660
orbs caused by those conditions it's

1216
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:03,670
very difficult to duplicate that kind of

1217
01:03:08,039 --> 01:03:05,410
thing first of all you got to have the

1218
01:03:12,200 --> 01:03:08,049
exact same conditions and it's not

1219
01:03:15,509 --> 01:03:12,210
always easy to duplicate those um but uh

1220
01:03:18,870 --> 01:03:15,519
you know I I think some of the orbs are

1221
01:03:20,819 --> 01:03:18,880
actually unknown objects I don't know

1222
01:03:22,890 --> 01:03:20,829
whether they really belong in the area

1223
01:03:27,269 --> 01:03:22,900
of ghost hunting or they belong in the

1224
01:03:28,950 --> 01:03:27,279
UFOs to my way of thinking it doesn't

1225
01:03:32,640 --> 01:03:28,960
matter if they're unknown than your

1226
01:03:35,519 --> 01:03:32,650
unknown and that would mean in in in

1227
01:03:37,829 --> 01:03:35,529
MUFON terms that there are UFOs even

1228
01:03:40,460 --> 01:03:37,839
though they may not be you know

1229
01:03:43,979 --> 01:03:40,470
something that anyone would consider

1230
01:03:48,200 --> 01:03:43,989
similar to an alien spacecraft still

1231
01:03:50,489 --> 01:03:48,210
they're unknown and I want thank you for

1232
01:03:52,289 --> 01:03:50,499
talking about that I wanted to mention

1233
01:03:57,240 --> 01:03:52,299
something Frank and I talked about about

1234
01:04:01,980 --> 01:03:59,880
to note egg data and that is I'll just

1235
01:04:04,110 --> 01:04:01,990
let our listeners know exif data and

1236
01:04:06,630 --> 01:04:04,120
that contains a lot of information about

1237
01:04:09,390 --> 01:04:06,640
the camera potentially where the picture

1238
01:04:12,450 --> 01:04:09,400
was taken the GPS coordinates the dates

1239
01:04:15,450 --> 01:04:12,460
the time the camera settings possibly

1240
01:04:19,730 --> 01:04:15,460
include copyright information there

1241
01:04:22,440 --> 01:04:19,740
could be metadata anything related to

1242
01:04:24,210 --> 01:04:22,450
just really a ton of information and

1243
01:04:26,730 --> 01:04:24,220
also a frank and i will talk about

1244
01:04:28,980 --> 01:04:26,740
whether exif data can be manipulated and

1245
01:04:32,220 --> 01:04:28,990
it's just interesting how the various

1246
01:04:35,550 --> 01:04:32,230
ways folks can actually mess with a

1247
01:04:38,460 --> 01:04:35,560
picture so that a picture can look like

1248
01:04:41,550 --> 01:04:38,470
the exif data was never manipulated but

1249
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:41,560
then if there's a picture of a

1250
01:04:46,110 --> 01:04:43,330
manipulated picture you'll never know

1251
01:04:48,450 --> 01:04:46,120
there's a lot of different tricks people

1252
01:04:51,330 --> 01:04:48,460
can do in order to make it look like

1253
01:04:57,420 --> 01:04:51,340
there is a UFO that somebody's looking

1254
01:05:01,470 --> 01:04:57,430
at or a fleet of UFOs yes yes IEF is the

1255
01:05:03,300 --> 01:05:01,480
metadata to be clear okay and yeah we

1256
01:05:05,700 --> 01:05:03,310
use that whenever we can if it's

1257
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:05,710
available if it's not available then a

1258
01:05:12,870 --> 01:05:09,850
question is can we get original photo

1259
01:05:14,550 --> 01:05:12,880
from the witness some people have

1260
01:05:16,260 --> 01:05:14,560
trouble with it I don't know if it's

1261
01:05:20,730 --> 01:05:16,270
because of the software and their phone

1262
01:05:24,210 --> 01:05:20,740
or what that once they've sent it as a

1263
01:05:26,310 --> 01:05:24,220
copy to someone else it gets changed in

1264
01:05:28,620 --> 01:05:26,320
and it's really difficult to get the

1265
01:05:31,050 --> 01:05:28,630
original it may have to do with the

1266
01:05:34,170 --> 01:05:31,060
particular types of phones what kind of

1267
01:05:36,660 --> 01:05:34,180
software they have and so forth but I

1268
01:05:42,780 --> 01:05:36,670
have found that they're there to me I

1269
01:05:47,280 --> 01:05:42,790
have a very strong principle that I go

1270
01:05:51,540 --> 01:05:47,290
with the photo by itself isn't nearly as

1271
01:05:55,050 --> 01:05:51,550
important unless you have the witness at

1272
01:05:57,480 --> 01:05:55,060
that debt you can talk to and know

1273
01:05:59,850 --> 01:05:57,490
exactly what their what their level of

1274
01:06:01,860 --> 01:05:59,860
expertise is what motives do they have

1275
01:06:02,970 --> 01:06:01,870
do they have any motive to make up a

1276
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:02,980
fake photo

1277
01:06:09,210 --> 01:06:06,610
if not then probably there's no reason

1278
01:06:11,099 --> 01:06:09,220
why they would have faked anything to go

1279
01:06:12,720 --> 01:06:11,109
to the trouble of manipulating the

1280
01:06:15,779 --> 01:06:12,730
sigh F to make it look like an original

1281
01:06:18,479 --> 01:06:15,789
photo that implies someone really trying

1282
01:06:22,460 --> 01:06:18,489
to pull off a hoax I have run into very

1283
01:06:25,950 --> 01:06:22,470
few people that are that interested in

1284
01:06:30,410 --> 01:06:25,960
coming up without UFO hoaxes and most of

1285
01:06:33,450 --> 01:06:30,420
them are teenage boys that are just

1286
01:06:37,140 --> 01:06:33,460
messing around making up stories and

1287
01:06:38,970 --> 01:06:37,150
submitting them to MUFON as UFO reports

1288
01:06:41,190 --> 01:06:38,980
they're not trying to make up fake

1289
01:06:43,650 --> 01:06:41,200
photos and all that kind of stuff so I

1290
01:06:45,299 --> 01:06:43,660
run into very little of that kind of

1291
01:06:49,499 --> 01:06:45,309
stuff and all the years I've been doing

1292
01:06:51,599 --> 01:06:49,509
this so Mike but my moment number one

1293
01:06:54,509 --> 01:06:51,609
thing about the photos is if someone

1294
01:06:55,380 --> 01:06:54,519
shows me a photo or a video they got off

1295
01:06:58,349 --> 01:06:55,390
the internet

1296
01:07:00,660 --> 01:06:58,359
the first thing I ask them is what's the

1297
01:07:03,690 --> 01:07:00,670
source where did it come from

1298
01:07:07,170 --> 01:07:03,700
do we have any way of contacting the

1299
01:07:09,509 --> 01:07:07,180
original photographer if not and I say

1300
01:07:12,779 --> 01:07:09,519
I'm sorry I'm not interesting it means

1301
01:07:15,329 --> 01:07:12,789
nothing I know nothing about what's been

1302
01:07:16,890 --> 01:07:15,339
through who could have manipulated it if

1303
01:07:19,049 --> 01:07:16,900
I don't even have the date time and

1304
01:07:21,720 --> 01:07:19,059
place where the photo was taken I have

1305
01:07:22,370 --> 01:07:21,730
very little data it's not important to

1306
01:07:27,690 --> 01:07:22,380
me

1307
01:07:29,940 --> 01:07:27,700
things they find on the internet and I I

1308
01:07:32,279 --> 01:07:29,950
just try to tell them look whatever you

1309
01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:32,289
believe about UFOs and all that I

1310
01:07:37,710 --> 01:07:35,890
respect that but don't believe some kind

1311
01:07:41,309 --> 01:07:37,720
of photo or video you find on the

1312
01:07:44,160 --> 01:07:41,319
Internet unless you can ask me track

1313
01:07:46,049 --> 01:07:44,170
down the original source and in the

1314
01:07:48,630 --> 01:07:46,059
provenance of that material because if

1315
01:07:52,279 --> 01:07:48,640
you can't it's not really worth spending

1316
01:07:54,809 --> 01:07:52,289
any time at all I agree

1317
01:07:57,420 --> 01:07:54,819
um do you have any other cases you would

1318
01:07:59,999 --> 01:07:57,430
like to share with us well I went

1319
01:08:01,289 --> 01:08:00,009
through my whole list of cases okay we

1320
01:08:06,210 --> 01:08:01,299
have a lot of questions you want to ask

1321
01:08:09,239 --> 01:08:06,220
me you want I sure do yes thank you very

1322
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:09,249
much for let's go ahead and move on to

1323
01:08:15,599 --> 01:08:12,730
that other part and that is I wanted to

1324
01:08:17,490 --> 01:08:15,609
ask you what is the last you up for a

1325
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:17,500
MUFON related conference you attended

1326
01:08:24,930 --> 01:08:19,440
and how did that go for you

1327
01:08:29,400 --> 01:08:24,940
well that was the last mute on symposium

1328
01:08:31,860 --> 01:08:29,410
in town in Southern California person I

1329
01:08:37,050 --> 01:08:31,870
think that might be Irving a California

1330
01:08:41,100 --> 01:08:37,060
or was it right Irvine yes oh that's

1331
01:08:44,280 --> 01:08:41,110
great um we had a long good good

1332
01:08:47,910 --> 01:08:44,290
sessions especially the state director

1333
01:08:51,000 --> 01:08:47,920
meeting with Doug what his dogs named

1334
01:08:55,020 --> 01:08:51,010
fern you know dog don't use it right

1335
01:08:56,550 --> 01:08:55,030
he's a he said so we have Steve Hudgens

1336
01:08:58,590 --> 01:08:56,560
who is the international director of

1337
01:09:02,550 --> 01:08:58,600
investigations and then we have Doug who

1338
01:09:06,690 --> 01:09:02,560
is the director of the US investigations

1339
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:06,700
on chief investigator yeah and we had a

1340
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:09,130
really good session on on questions of

1341
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:12,610
deciding what's in on the own and what's

1342
01:09:19,830 --> 01:09:16,570
an identified and why recently the

1343
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:19,840
statistics have gotten skewed and it had

1344
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:22,480
a lot to do with some information that

1345
01:09:28,830 --> 01:09:26,890
went out as to how what the standards

1346
01:09:33,230 --> 01:09:28,840
were for deciding whether something is

1347
01:09:36,240 --> 01:09:33,240
an unidentified or it's identified and

1348
01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:36,250
Doug Wilson sorry that was that's the

1349
01:09:41,580 --> 01:09:38,290
name I just went playing for a moment

1350
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:41,590
but anyway that that was a really good

1351
01:09:44,460 --> 01:09:43,120
session it was very important to go

1352
01:09:47,250 --> 01:09:44,470
through that and of course the guest

1353
01:09:49,020 --> 01:09:47,260
speakers generally speaking we had some

1354
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:49,030
really good guest speakers at me fond

1355
01:09:56,600 --> 01:09:53,530
symposiums and the last time was was

1356
01:09:59,010 --> 01:09:56,610
very good would also like to mention

1357
01:10:02,150 --> 01:09:59,020
yeah I would also like to mention that

1358
01:10:05,310 --> 01:10:02,160
sorry I thought I was on mute that

1359
01:10:07,260 --> 01:10:05,320
there's McMillan's UFO festival annually

1360
01:10:10,950 --> 01:10:07,270
which you have gone every year I believe

1361
01:10:13,560 --> 01:10:10,960
faithfully and a few speakers that I

1362
01:10:15,300 --> 01:10:13,570
believe you may have seen talk there

1363
01:10:19,080 --> 01:10:15,310
were Stanton Friedman and Kathleen

1364
01:10:21,870 --> 01:10:19,090
Martin is that correct yes and and and

1365
01:10:24,180 --> 01:10:21,880
so you went this last year I know that

1366
01:10:26,370 --> 01:10:24,190
there are quite a few interesting guests

1367
01:10:27,570 --> 01:10:26,380
there do you do you recall maybe one

1368
01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:27,580
that you just want to mention that you

1369
01:10:33,120 --> 01:10:30,130
saw that that was something really nice

1370
01:10:38,100 --> 01:10:33,130
to see or listen to well commander David

1371
01:10:38,850 --> 01:10:38,110
flavor he's one of the pilots that chase

1372
01:10:45,540 --> 01:10:38,860
you

1373
01:10:50,550 --> 01:10:45,550
pose in an FAA team based on a US Navy

1374
01:10:56,790 --> 01:10:50,560
aircraft carrier and so it was really

1375
01:11:01,470 --> 01:10:56,800
good to hear him firsthand and well I'm

1376
01:11:03,990 --> 01:11:01,480
I'm not a hundred percent sold on Bob

1377
01:11:08,970 --> 01:11:04,000
Lazar but it was interesting hearing him

1378
01:11:13,439 --> 01:11:08,980
firsthand and so yeah I just wanted to

1379
01:11:16,109 --> 01:11:13,449
mention the person that you you just

1380
01:11:20,520 --> 01:11:16,119
mentioned he was actually introduced on

1381
01:11:21,990 --> 01:11:20,530
stage by George Knapp and we also Frank

1382
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:22,000
do you call we in we actually

1383
01:11:28,109 --> 01:11:25,570
interviewed Paco is it Cherokees how I

1384
01:11:31,919 --> 01:11:28,119
say his name right right yeah yeah that

1385
01:11:34,770 --> 01:11:31,929
was a couple months ago and he was he's

1386
01:11:37,350 --> 01:11:34,780
a good friend of command of flavor and

1387
01:11:39,300 --> 01:11:37,360
it was just fascinating talking to one

1388
01:11:42,810 --> 01:11:39,310
of his close friends to talk more about

1389
01:11:45,450 --> 01:11:42,820
the tic-tac and also we have interviewed

1390
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:45,460
folks who were on the USS Nimitz in the

1391
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:48,250
USS Princeton for people regarding that

1392
01:11:53,550 --> 01:11:50,530
Tic Tac incident so it's neat to be able

1393
01:11:56,399 --> 01:11:53,560
to hear more about that topic and then I

1394
01:11:58,379 --> 01:11:56,409
wanted to ask you about a little bit

1395
01:12:00,169 --> 01:11:58,389
about MUFON I just want to know why do

1396
01:12:04,919 --> 01:12:00,179
you feel that

1397
01:12:08,700 --> 01:12:04,929
why is MUFON relevant to the realm of

1398
01:12:11,879 --> 01:12:08,710
ufology there's no one else in the

1399
01:12:14,010 --> 01:12:11,889
entire world doing what mutant new pond

1400
01:12:19,379 --> 01:12:14,020
is doing today that we know of and that

1401
01:12:22,800 --> 01:12:19,389
is attempting to follow up and document

1402
01:12:26,760 --> 01:12:22,810
as much as possible all the information

1403
01:12:28,919 --> 01:12:26,770
on all the UFO reports we receive and

1404
01:12:33,750 --> 01:12:28,929
it's a huge effort and it's all

1405
01:12:37,950 --> 01:12:33,760
volunteers I've heard rumors that China

1406
01:12:40,950 --> 01:12:37,960
has a has a UFO study group but of

1407
01:12:44,669 --> 01:12:40,960
course they don't tell anyone else about

1408
01:12:47,010 --> 01:12:44,679
it so all I have is rumors there may be

1409
01:12:49,890 --> 01:12:47,020
people in the Soviet Union studying UFOs

1410
01:12:51,990 --> 01:12:49,900
but I have no idea what that program

1411
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:52,000
looks like or what they're doing with

1412
01:12:54,479 --> 01:12:52,239
their

1413
01:12:57,660 --> 01:12:54,489
data because once again they're not

1414
01:13:03,239 --> 01:12:57,670
sharing the rest of the world but MUFON

1415
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:03,249
is a public organization we we share the

1416
01:13:08,970 --> 01:13:06,010
data now the we used to let people look

1417
01:13:12,390 --> 01:13:08,980
at all the reports for free but the

1418
01:13:14,640 --> 01:13:12,400
problem is me MUFON needs money we need

1419
01:13:17,729 --> 01:13:14,650
some way to encourage people to join me

1420
01:13:21,839 --> 01:13:17,739
font so now if you want to go out and

1421
01:13:23,370 --> 01:13:21,849
search the deciding database and see

1422
01:13:26,520 --> 01:13:23,380
what we've got

1423
01:13:30,089 --> 01:13:26,530
you need to be a member but yeah it's

1424
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:30,099
it's a it's a organization that is that

1425
01:13:41,669 --> 01:13:35,170
has I think it's it's growing and it's

1426
01:13:44,850 --> 01:13:41,679
it's really I just think it's it's it's

1427
01:13:48,060 --> 01:13:44,860
it's a big ten organization some people

1428
01:13:50,879 --> 01:13:48,070
think that muon has as restrictive ideas

1429
01:13:52,229 --> 01:13:50,889
about things there were times when yeah

1430
01:13:54,209 --> 01:13:52,239
they were a little narrower in their

1431
01:13:57,600 --> 01:13:54,219
view but I don't think that's true today

1432
01:13:59,729 --> 01:13:57,610
why I tell people that new pons a big

1433
01:14:04,229 --> 01:13:59,739
tent organization there are people with

1434
01:14:06,560 --> 01:14:04,239
all sorts of beliefs about UFOs but to

1435
01:14:11,279 --> 01:14:06,570
me the important thing is we have a

1436
01:14:14,640 --> 01:14:11,289
basic core value in and in me fun and

1437
01:14:17,669 --> 01:14:14,650
that is let's gather the facts and then

1438
01:14:19,439 --> 01:14:17,679
let's get the facts down first then we

1439
01:14:21,839 --> 01:14:19,449
can talk about what we think about them

1440
01:14:25,140 --> 01:14:21,849
and that's my out of two to when I

1441
01:14:27,839 --> 01:14:25,150
investigate UFO reports it's not about

1442
01:14:30,390 --> 01:14:27,849
what I believe it's about the facts that

1443
01:14:33,060 --> 01:14:30,400
I can gather and as soon as I get a

1444
01:14:36,600 --> 01:14:33,070
report I start with looking for all the

1445
01:14:40,100 --> 01:14:36,610
facts I can get I find a date and in and

1446
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:40,110
time and the place and I look up the

1447
01:14:45,930 --> 01:14:43,090
report I get that information down then

1448
01:14:48,410 --> 01:14:45,940
I check if start nest our positions are

1449
01:14:50,729 --> 01:14:48,420
relevant and satellites then I look up

1450
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:50,739
astronomical data I get the latitude and

1451
01:14:54,899 --> 01:14:52,449
longitude of the location of the

1452
01:14:57,149 --> 01:14:54,909
sighting I get all this stuff down into

1453
01:14:59,939 --> 01:14:57,159
the report first and then I start

1454
01:15:01,709 --> 01:14:59,949
working on the rest of this stuff and a

1455
01:15:03,330 --> 01:15:01,719
lot of people think that those facts

1456
01:15:06,149 --> 01:15:03,340
don't matter but they do matter

1457
01:15:10,350 --> 01:15:06,159
and in the final analysis if

1458
01:15:13,169 --> 01:15:10,360
if you end up with two reports that are

1459
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:13,179
close enough together in time and in

1460
01:15:18,479 --> 01:15:13,810
space

1461
01:15:20,120 --> 01:15:18,489
you may have a to witness case no it's

1462
01:15:23,419 --> 01:15:20,130
happened to me a couple of times and

1463
01:15:27,479 --> 01:15:23,429
when I had all the relevant information

1464
01:15:30,300 --> 01:15:27,489
gathered I knew that I had possibly two

1465
01:15:32,220 --> 01:15:30,310
witnesses to the same event it's it's

1466
01:15:34,830 --> 01:15:32,230
really great when you can do that but if

1467
01:15:37,290 --> 01:15:34,840
you don't know all the facts it's sort

1468
01:15:39,060 --> 01:15:37,300
of hard to establish that and if you

1469
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:39,070
don't know weather weather report is you

1470
01:15:43,620 --> 01:15:41,050
may not know what the visibility was

1471
01:15:47,430 --> 01:15:43,630
like and if someone sees an object in

1472
01:15:49,860 --> 01:15:47,440
the sky you want to know whether there

1473
01:15:51,959 --> 01:15:49,870
were clouds in the sky was this object

1474
01:15:54,990 --> 01:15:51,969
above the clouds or below the clouds or

1475
01:15:58,530 --> 01:15:55,000
were there no clouds that all those

1476
01:16:01,530 --> 01:15:58,540
things matter and and MUFON trains

1477
01:16:04,410 --> 01:16:01,540
investigators so that they they have

1478
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:04,420
knowledge to gather those facts and

1479
01:16:09,930 --> 01:16:07,170
understand and that they're relevant

1480
01:16:11,700 --> 01:16:09,940
then all the rest of the stuff is fun to

1481
01:16:16,020 --> 01:16:11,710
talk about but if you don't have the

1482
01:16:19,770 --> 01:16:16,030
basic facts you're not you're not you're

1483
01:16:22,649 --> 01:16:19,780
not working from a good solid base when

1484
01:16:25,320 --> 01:16:22,659
you go into discussions about UFOs so

1485
01:16:27,570 --> 01:16:25,330
mopin uses a scientific model in order

1486
01:16:29,760 --> 01:16:27,580
to investigate and of course that's a

1487
01:16:32,910 --> 01:16:29,770
paramount importance and the core of

1488
01:16:35,180 --> 01:16:32,920
being able to actually assess any kind

1489
01:16:38,910 --> 01:16:35,190
of cases that come forward to MUFON

1490
01:16:41,100 --> 01:16:38,920
Steve Hudgens was also saying that he is

1491
01:16:44,669 --> 01:16:41,110
the international director of 150

1492
01:16:46,610 --> 01:16:44,679
different countries so MUFON covers

1493
01:16:49,169 --> 01:16:46,620
quite a large area of the planet

1494
01:16:53,910 --> 01:16:49,179
especially since there's like 193

1495
01:16:58,229 --> 01:16:53,920
countries in the world so MUFON I'm very

1496
01:16:59,939 --> 01:16:58,239
glad to say is there for anyone to join

1497
01:17:05,669 --> 01:16:59,949
and if you want to join move on just go

1498
01:17:08,879 --> 01:17:05,679
to MUFON dot-com and you it's a very

1499
01:17:10,850 --> 01:17:08,889
user-friendly menu and I would highly

1500
01:17:12,720 --> 01:17:10,860
recommend folks join that join this

1501
01:17:14,970 --> 01:17:12,730
organization that's been around for half

1502
01:17:16,470 --> 01:17:14,980
a century wanted to ask you as a member

1503
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:16,480
of MUFON what is your role and what do

1504
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:19,449
you feel your role is and does for MUFON

1505
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:22,560
okay I'm the state director for Oregon

1506
01:17:30,390 --> 01:17:27,280
and to me there's there's two very

1507
01:17:32,939 --> 01:17:30,400
important roles in a state director one

1508
01:17:36,570 --> 01:17:32,949
of them is to be in charge of

1509
01:17:39,900 --> 01:17:36,580
investigating investigating UFO reports

1510
01:17:44,459 --> 01:17:39,910
that are for events that occur in Oregon

1511
01:17:48,180 --> 01:17:44,469
and on and it's really important to for

1512
01:17:50,430 --> 01:17:48,190
me to have other people that are willing

1513
01:17:52,770 --> 01:17:50,440
to do the investigations when when

1514
01:17:55,410 --> 01:17:52,780
someone becomes a new mutant

1515
01:17:57,900 --> 01:17:55,420
investigator in Oregon I'm responsible

1516
01:18:00,060 --> 01:17:57,910
to ultimen ultimately for training that

1517
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:00,070
person finishing the training for that

1518
01:18:04,290 --> 01:18:02,050
person and getting them involved in

1519
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:04,300
their cases working with them to get

1520
01:18:08,250 --> 01:18:05,890
them up to speed for their first few

1521
01:18:09,450 --> 01:18:08,260
cases because it's not easy I'm gonna

1522
01:18:11,939 --> 01:18:09,460
tell you right now it is very

1523
01:18:14,250 --> 01:18:11,949
challenging so if anyone wants to become

1524
01:18:17,310 --> 01:18:14,260
a UFO investigator and they're not

1525
01:18:20,580 --> 01:18:17,320
afraid of a really good challenge by all

1526
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:20,590
means please sign up with me font and

1527
01:18:28,050 --> 01:18:23,520
take the training become an investigator

1528
01:18:29,700 --> 01:18:28,060
it's it's so it's really interesting the

1529
01:18:34,380 --> 01:18:29,710
other thing that's really important to

1530
01:18:37,140 --> 01:18:34,390
me is public public outreach and public

1531
01:18:39,479 --> 01:18:37,150
education I want to make sure that we

1532
01:18:43,350 --> 01:18:39,489
have meetings that people can come to

1533
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:43,360
and try to reach out and let the public

1534
01:18:48,570 --> 01:18:46,239
know more about UFOs because there's a

1535
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:48,580
lot of misconceptions out there people

1536
01:18:54,419 --> 01:18:51,850
have been taught over many decades to

1537
01:18:57,360 --> 01:18:54,429
make fun of UFOs and not everyone does

1538
01:19:00,450 --> 01:18:57,370
it but some people still do they think

1539
01:19:03,209 --> 01:19:00,460
it's a subject of ridicule we want to

1540
01:19:06,689 --> 01:19:03,219
change that attitude among people in the

1541
01:19:08,820 --> 01:19:06,699
public and not and part of it is this

1542
01:19:11,540 --> 01:19:08,830
when people are dealing with things they

1543
01:19:13,950 --> 01:19:11,550
don't understand or are unknown to them

1544
01:19:17,490 --> 01:19:13,960
one of the ways they deal with that is

1545
01:19:20,040 --> 01:19:17,500
by humor and there's two different kinds

1546
01:19:21,979 --> 01:19:20,050
of humor but sometimes humor can get a

1547
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:21,989
little bit negative

1548
01:19:26,430 --> 01:19:24,250
especially when it's directed towards

1549
01:19:28,590 --> 01:19:26,440
someone who's talking about an

1550
01:19:31,439 --> 01:19:28,600
experience they had that you don't

1551
01:19:33,270 --> 01:19:31,449
understand we like to try to counteract

1552
01:19:36,089 --> 01:19:33,280
that by educating people

1553
01:19:37,979 --> 01:19:36,099
and getting them to understand that yeah

1554
01:19:41,669 --> 01:19:37,989
there are strange things in this world

1555
01:19:43,680 --> 01:19:41,679
that you may not understand there's some

1556
01:19:45,330 --> 01:19:43,690
reason why that actually turned as

1557
01:19:47,100 --> 01:19:45,340
ridicule against someone else who's

1558
01:19:50,669 --> 01:19:47,110
experienced something that you don't

1559
01:19:52,830 --> 01:19:50,679
understand so that's that's the most

1560
01:19:56,189 --> 01:19:52,840
important parts there's a lot other

1561
01:19:57,899 --> 01:19:56,199
little details I am responsible for

1562
01:20:00,540 --> 01:19:57,909
dealing with the money because we

1563
01:20:02,370 --> 01:20:00,550
collect donations and that I have to

1564
01:20:04,859 --> 01:20:02,380
spend that money and different things

1565
01:20:07,740 --> 01:20:04,869
like renting rooms for meetings and

1566
01:20:09,750 --> 01:20:07,750
cetera et cetera but the main two things

1567
01:20:11,850 --> 01:20:09,760
are like I say being in charge of the

1568
01:20:15,720 --> 01:20:11,860
investigations making sure those those

1569
01:20:19,589 --> 01:20:15,730
get done and public education I wanted

1570
01:20:22,859 --> 01:20:19,599
to mention something that we talked

1571
01:20:25,020 --> 01:20:22,869
about before we we went on to this

1572
01:20:27,810 --> 01:20:25,030
interview and that was a case you felt

1573
01:20:31,680 --> 01:20:27,820
would be of interest possibly and that

1574
01:20:33,049 --> 01:20:31,690
is the are b-47 case radar bomber bomber

1575
01:20:35,490 --> 01:20:33,059
case sorry

1576
01:20:40,589 --> 01:20:35,500
do you mind sharing just a little bit

1577
01:20:42,029 --> 01:20:40,599
about that case oh I'm sorry I didn't I

1578
01:20:45,419 --> 01:20:42,039
didn't brush up on it I'm gonna give you

1579
01:20:49,919 --> 01:20:45,429
a real blog a summary of it this

1580
01:20:53,129 --> 01:20:49,929
occurred in Texas and I don't remember

1581
01:20:55,919 --> 01:20:53,139
the year now but it was a few decades

1582
01:20:58,020 --> 01:20:55,929
ago actually I think it was I think it

1583
01:21:00,149 --> 01:20:58,030
was late 50s if I recall correctly it

1584
01:21:01,459 --> 01:21:00,159
was I took a look at it that sounds

1585
01:21:05,790 --> 01:21:01,469
about right

1586
01:21:10,979 --> 01:21:05,800
so this plane the RB 47 was basically a

1587
01:21:13,620 --> 01:21:10,989
b-47 bomber that was outfitted for

1588
01:21:16,709 --> 01:21:13,630
electronic surveillance it had radar

1589
01:21:19,529 --> 01:21:16,719
equipment and other radio listening

1590
01:21:23,160 --> 01:21:19,539
devices in it it was basically an

1591
01:21:28,560 --> 01:21:23,170
electronic spy plane it was flying

1592
01:21:30,779 --> 01:21:28,570
across Texas and encountered an object

1593
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:30,789
that at first they thought it was an

1594
01:21:38,819 --> 01:21:35,170
aircraft because by this time aircraft

1595
01:21:43,410 --> 01:21:38,829
were they were equipped with

1596
01:21:46,770 --> 01:21:43,420
transponders and so they were looking at

1597
01:21:48,870 --> 01:21:46,780
the radar signature of this too

1598
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:48,880
crafts and looking for the transponder

1599
01:21:55,130 --> 01:21:52,570
information and they realized that it

1600
01:22:00,930 --> 01:21:55,140
was echoing back their own transponder

1601
01:22:07,620 --> 01:22:00,940
which is very strange because you know

1602
01:22:10,890 --> 01:22:07,630
that's that's not normal and and a

1603
01:22:14,610 --> 01:22:10,900
gentleman named Brad sparks who I met

1604
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:14,620
back in my day area San Francisco berry

1605
01:22:21,870 --> 01:22:19,690
Bay Area days I I got to know him I

1606
01:22:25,170 --> 01:22:21,880
think this is a really interesting case

1607
01:22:26,790 --> 01:22:25,180
and if I messed up some of the details I

1608
01:22:28,260 --> 01:22:26,800
apologize because I didn't do my

1609
01:22:31,230 --> 01:22:28,270
homework on that one before

1610
01:22:33,150 --> 01:22:31,240
our our session here today but finding

1611
01:22:36,780 --> 01:22:33,160
anyone's interested they should just

1612
01:22:39,660 --> 01:22:36,790
look that up the RB 47 case it's it's

1613
01:22:41,600 --> 01:22:39,670
the details are fascinating I wouldn't

1614
01:22:44,820 --> 01:22:41,610
say it's a quick read it's probably a

1615
01:22:47,010 --> 01:22:44,830
fairly long article there's a lot of

1616
01:22:49,350 --> 01:22:47,020
technical details in there but I think

1617
01:22:52,650 --> 01:22:49,360
it's worthwhile because it's it's it's

1618
01:22:55,620 --> 01:22:52,660
it's a really important case because of

1619
01:22:58,260 --> 01:22:55,630
what told the people involved in

1620
01:23:01,200 --> 01:22:58,270
military people involved that these UFOs

1621
01:23:02,970 --> 01:23:01,210
are definitely there there's some kind

1622
01:23:05,850 --> 01:23:02,980
of intelligence we saw behind them

1623
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:05,860
because only something with an

1624
01:23:11,460 --> 01:23:08,530
intelligent control system could have

1625
01:23:13,590 --> 01:23:11,470
done what this object did yeah I

1626
01:23:18,470 --> 01:23:13,600
actually typed in exactly what you said

1627
01:23:21,210 --> 01:23:18,480
and I added added the acronym UFO and

1628
01:23:22,440 --> 01:23:21,220
you're right the data is there to read

1629
01:23:24,300 --> 01:23:22,450
so I'm really glad that you mentioned

1630
01:23:27,000 --> 01:23:24,310
that I'm glad we were able to actually

1631
01:23:29,400 --> 01:23:27,010
mention the case so that folks can find

1632
01:23:32,700 --> 01:23:29,410
out more about it and then I wanted to

1633
01:23:34,290 --> 01:23:32,710
ask you go into a few questions that are

1634
01:23:37,910 --> 01:23:34,300
a little bit deeper than what we've

1635
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:37,920
covered and one of those questions is

1636
01:23:42,930 --> 01:23:40,570
has society evolved at the point where

1637
01:23:44,310 --> 01:23:42,940
it feels there's extraterrestrial

1638
01:23:47,930 --> 01:23:44,320
activity and they are more willing to

1639
01:23:50,370 --> 01:23:47,940
acknowledge the possibility of it again

1640
01:23:54,030 --> 01:23:50,380
has society evolved to the point where

1641
01:23:56,190 --> 01:23:54,040
it feels there could be let me say that

1642
01:23:59,160 --> 01:23:56,200
there could be extraterrestrial activity

1643
01:24:00,630 --> 01:23:59,170
and they are more willing to acknowledge

1644
01:24:06,930 --> 01:24:00,640
a possibility

1645
01:24:08,850 --> 01:24:06,940
of that idea well when you when you when

1646
01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:08,860
you talk about these kind of issues and

1647
01:24:15,810 --> 01:24:12,010
you try to paint things with a broad

1648
01:24:17,640 --> 01:24:15,820
brush society involves a lot of people

1649
01:24:20,280 --> 01:24:17,650
with a lot of different ideas they have

1650
01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:20,290
different religious beliefs they have

1651
01:24:26,000 --> 01:24:22,570
different backgrounds and I would say

1652
01:24:31,370 --> 01:24:26,010
there's probably a lot of people today

1653
01:24:35,060 --> 01:24:31,380
that are willing to accept the idea of

1654
01:24:41,370 --> 01:24:35,070
you know intelligent life somewhere

1655
01:24:46,320 --> 01:24:41,380
somewhere else in our universe as for

1656
01:24:51,360 --> 01:24:46,330
society it society isn't constructed

1657
01:24:55,170 --> 01:24:51,370
with a lot of layers and we have the

1658
01:24:58,860 --> 01:24:55,180
elites the people that run things such

1659
01:25:02,120 --> 01:24:58,870
as the corporate executives the the the

1660
01:25:06,300 --> 01:25:02,130
top level academics government officials

1661
01:25:09,150 --> 01:25:06,310
many of them are not ready to deal with

1662
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:09,160
an issue like that publicly mainly

1663
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:11,530
because they don't want to upset the

1664
01:25:18,900 --> 01:25:15,610
current paradigm no a people in power

1665
01:25:21,390 --> 01:25:18,910
don't like to roll the dice with

1666
01:25:24,270 --> 01:25:21,400
something that could represent a change

1667
01:25:31,560 --> 01:25:24,280
in the paradigm that might diminish

1668
01:25:34,470 --> 01:25:31,570
their power so but when it comes to the

1669
01:25:36,240 --> 01:25:34,480
grassroots people and especially younger

1670
01:25:41,130 --> 01:25:36,250
people I would say yeah

1671
01:25:44,280 --> 01:25:41,140
most of those people are quite willing

1672
01:25:47,370 --> 01:25:44,290
entertain the notion of some other sort

1673
01:25:51,770 --> 01:25:47,380
of intelligence somewhere else if you

1674
01:25:56,060 --> 01:25:51,780
look at the way we behaved here you know

1675
01:25:58,790 --> 01:25:56,070
amongst ourselves roaring all the time

1676
01:26:01,770 --> 01:25:58,800
plundering our planet and polluting it

1677
01:26:05,210 --> 01:26:01,780
you can't say that we represent the

1678
01:26:08,130 --> 01:26:05,220
highest form of intelligent life so I

1679
01:26:10,290 --> 01:26:08,140
would like to think that there's someone

1680
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:10,300
somewhere that's more intelligent than

1681
01:26:14,460 --> 01:26:12,730
us maybe could handle things differently

1682
01:26:18,660 --> 01:26:14,470
than the way we

1683
01:26:22,890 --> 01:26:18,670
done it but I want to point out

1684
01:26:26,550 --> 01:26:22,900
something else there's there's often an

1685
01:26:30,420 --> 01:26:26,560
assumption that what-what UFOs represent

1686
01:26:33,270 --> 01:26:30,430
our visitors from another planet just

1687
01:26:39,680 --> 01:26:33,280
like flesh-and-blood beings of some sort

1688
01:26:44,640 --> 01:26:43,170
my feeling is the if we could find out

1689
01:26:46,500 --> 01:26:44,650
what's really going on and really

1690
01:26:47,640 --> 01:26:46,510
understand it it would be a lot more

1691
01:26:50,010 --> 01:26:47,650
complicated than that

1692
01:26:52,860 --> 01:26:50,020
these beings might not just be traveling

1693
01:26:56,250 --> 01:26:52,870
through space to get here they might be

1694
01:27:00,720 --> 01:26:56,260
traveling through time and we don't

1695
01:27:03,660 --> 01:27:00,730
understand that yet but if you look at

1696
01:27:06,810 --> 01:27:03,670
what Einstein rode he came to the

1697
01:27:09,420 --> 01:27:06,820
conclusion that space and time were part

1698
01:27:14,310 --> 01:27:09,430
of the same thing to the point where he

1699
01:27:17,370 --> 01:27:14,320
referred to it as space-time and much of

1700
01:27:20,430 --> 01:27:17,380
his theoretical work was based on this

1701
01:27:24,420 --> 01:27:20,440
idea that space and time were part of

1702
01:27:28,110 --> 01:27:24,430
the same thing and relativity and all

1703
01:27:31,350 --> 01:27:28,120
that stuff so the other thing that we

1704
01:27:34,020 --> 01:27:31,360
don't really understand is what ever

1705
01:27:37,170 --> 01:27:34,030
these beings are what the nature of them

1706
01:27:39,540 --> 01:27:37,180
could be their consciousness could be

1707
01:27:42,480 --> 01:27:39,550
evolved at a totally different level in

1708
01:27:45,810 --> 01:27:42,490
us they could represent beings from a

1709
01:27:50,160 --> 01:27:45,820
parallel universe of some sort that

1710
01:27:52,980 --> 01:27:50,170
intersects with ours so so that the

1711
01:27:56,430 --> 01:27:52,990
basic idea of just someone traveling in

1712
01:27:59,970 --> 01:27:56,440
a spacecraft from another star a system

1713
01:28:01,950 --> 01:27:59,980
that may be too simplistic an idea it

1714
01:28:05,330 --> 01:28:01,960
could be much more complicated than that

1715
01:28:08,040 --> 01:28:05,340
that that's why when we talked before I

1716
01:28:11,570 --> 01:28:08,050
mentioned Jacques Vallee because

1717
01:28:15,300 --> 01:28:11,580
Yachvili throws out ideas like that

1718
01:28:19,200 --> 01:28:15,310
nothing a thing I will say that people

1719
01:28:20,810 --> 01:28:19,210
who any of our listeners who most of

1720
01:28:24,030 --> 01:28:20,820
their information to get from either

1721
01:28:28,260 --> 01:28:24,040
listening to podcasts on the internet or

1722
01:28:31,200 --> 01:28:28,270
they get it from watching television

1723
01:28:33,660 --> 01:28:31,210
like ancient aliens things like that I

1724
01:28:36,750 --> 01:28:33,670
would encourage them to try to find some

1725
01:28:39,390 --> 01:28:36,760
good books on the subject of UFOs the

1726
01:28:42,900 --> 01:28:39,400
reason I say that is because many of the

1727
01:28:49,670 --> 01:28:42,910
books go into much greater detail than

1728
01:28:52,740 --> 01:28:49,680
what you can get on on the media

1729
01:28:55,770 --> 01:28:52,750
presentations that you might hear either

1730
01:28:59,760 --> 01:28:55,780
on the internet or on television and the

1731
01:29:02,010 --> 01:28:59,770
other important part about books is you

1732
01:29:04,140 --> 01:29:02,020
can reread a page over and over if you

1733
01:29:07,670 --> 01:29:04,150
don't understand it and try to get the

1734
01:29:10,650 --> 01:29:07,680
gist of it or you can go to the

1735
01:29:16,140 --> 01:29:10,660
references the footnotes bibliography

1736
01:29:18,120 --> 01:29:16,150
and notes look up other materials to

1737
01:29:20,940 --> 01:29:18,130
find out ok what's the basis for this

1738
01:29:22,910 --> 01:29:20,950
idea this suggest you get your other

1739
01:29:27,450 --> 01:29:22,920
references you can get a lot more

1740
01:29:30,990 --> 01:29:27,460
information that way my friend Keith as

1741
01:29:31,770 --> 01:29:31,000
a background is the librarian and on our

1742
01:29:35,580 --> 01:29:31,780
website

1743
01:29:38,670 --> 01:29:35,590
Oregon move on comm there is a section

1744
01:29:41,600 --> 01:29:38,680
there that refers to books and you go in

1745
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:41,610
there and he put together a really great

1746
01:29:47,160 --> 01:29:44,170
annotated bibliography of the UFO

1747
01:29:49,950 --> 01:29:47,170
subject people who have found is this

1748
01:29:52,980 --> 01:29:49,960
bibliography have said oh this is the

1749
01:29:56,340 --> 01:29:52,990
greatest thing I wish i known about this

1750
01:29:58,230 --> 01:29:56,350
before because they find that here they

1751
01:30:01,380 --> 01:29:58,240
have a great list of some of the best

1752
01:30:04,500 --> 01:30:01,390
books on the UFO subject that you can

1753
01:30:06,690 --> 01:30:04,510
find anywhere and it's it's annotated

1754
01:30:08,880 --> 01:30:06,700
gives a brief description of many of

1755
01:30:11,010 --> 01:30:08,890
these titles and what what they're

1756
01:30:13,530 --> 01:30:11,020
really about and I would highly

1757
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:13,540
recommend that anyone who really wants

1758
01:30:20,720 --> 01:30:16,690
to do some serious study on the UFO

1759
01:30:27,810 --> 01:30:25,140
on December 16 2017 there is an article

1760
01:30:29,810 --> 01:30:27,820
in The New York Times by Helen Cooper

1761
01:30:32,070 --> 01:30:29,820
Roth Blumenthal and Leslie Kean

1762
01:30:36,060 --> 01:30:32,080
regarding glowing arse and black money

1763
01:30:40,870 --> 01:30:36,070
in the AAT IP program and how there had

1764
01:30:45,100 --> 01:30:40,880
been a UFO program with the budget

1765
01:30:48,939 --> 01:30:45,110
by the Pentagon for about five years and

1766
01:30:52,140 --> 01:30:48,949
some people considered that article a

1767
01:30:55,870 --> 01:30:52,150
form of disclosure by the US government

1768
01:30:57,550 --> 01:30:55,880
regarding the UFO UFO topic do you

1769
01:30:58,720 --> 01:30:57,560
believe that's the case and if that's

1770
01:31:01,300 --> 01:30:58,730
not the case

1771
01:31:06,510 --> 01:31:01,310
do you believe disclosure has already

1772
01:31:13,990 --> 01:31:08,770
okay

1773
01:31:18,100 --> 01:31:14,000
I'm gonna I'm gonna take take you to a

1774
01:31:21,490 --> 01:31:18,110
point where where I have to explain

1775
01:31:27,640 --> 01:31:21,500
something about the word believe and my

1776
01:31:30,390 --> 01:31:27,650
thought processes for me I only like to

1777
01:31:33,790 --> 01:31:30,400
use leave when I'm talking about

1778
01:31:41,350 --> 01:31:33,800
something like an article of faith like

1779
01:31:44,050 --> 01:31:41,360
religious matters to me I like to deal

1780
01:31:46,649 --> 01:31:44,060
more in facts yeah different

1781
01:31:49,709 --> 01:31:46,659
interpretation we had this conversation

1782
01:31:53,229 --> 01:31:49,719
go ahead and insert the word think and

1783
01:31:55,750 --> 01:31:53,239
and just trade it out regarding belief

1784
01:31:59,649 --> 01:31:55,760
do you believe that disclosure or do you

1785
01:32:02,620 --> 01:31:59,659
think the gist of it is has disclosure

1786
01:32:04,570 --> 01:32:02,630
happened if it not if it has not when

1787
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:04,580
will it that I just don't want to get

1788
01:32:12,910 --> 01:32:06,560
into the semantics of it I thoroughly

1789
01:32:14,500 --> 01:32:12,920
understand your perspective but the gist

1790
01:32:16,510 --> 01:32:14,510
of the question is do you think

1791
01:32:19,930 --> 01:32:16,520
disclosure has happened if not one more

1792
01:32:22,300 --> 01:32:19,940
if not if it will not happen why not

1793
01:32:27,850 --> 01:32:22,310
well here's the thing disclosure is not

1794
01:32:31,330 --> 01:32:27,860
a single event it's a process and in and

1795
01:32:33,939 --> 01:32:31,340
there's that depth depth point where

1796
01:32:40,600 --> 01:32:33,949
that article was published is absolutely

1797
01:32:44,310 --> 01:32:40,610
a very important moment and that was it

1798
01:32:47,860 --> 01:32:44,320
was a seminal in the disclosure process

1799
01:32:51,160 --> 01:32:47,870
what happened over the the the

1800
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:51,170
subsequent months was that much of the

1801
01:32:58,620 --> 01:32:54,530
material that came out at that time

1802
01:33:03,150 --> 01:32:58,630
was was explored by other people

1803
01:33:08,170 --> 01:33:03,160
questions were asked of the Pentagon and

1804
01:33:10,440 --> 01:33:08,180
the Navy in particular to find out what

1805
01:33:13,330 --> 01:33:10,450
they were doing if if in fact they were

1806
01:33:17,080 --> 01:33:13,340
exploring questions of what are these

1807
01:33:19,420 --> 01:33:17,090
objects now the Navy and well the

1808
01:33:23,170 --> 01:33:19,430
military in general no longer likes to

1809
01:33:25,510 --> 01:33:23,180
use the term UFO but the fact that that

1810
01:33:28,930 --> 01:33:25,520
you can ask them about UFOs and you get

1811
01:33:31,840 --> 01:33:28,940
a negative response doesn't really mean

1812
01:33:33,610 --> 01:33:31,850
they're not interested in a subject it

1813
01:33:36,280 --> 01:33:33,620
means they don't like to use that term

1814
01:33:38,410 --> 01:33:36,290
because the term is acquired too much

1815
01:33:41,290 --> 01:33:38,420
cultural baggage even though the army

1816
01:33:44,440 --> 01:33:41,300
investigated or invented the term UFO

1817
01:33:48,940 --> 01:33:44,450
they like to call an unidentified aerial

1818
01:33:51,280 --> 01:33:48,950
phenomena but yes they did agree that

1819
01:33:53,220 --> 01:33:51,290
they are interested in studying these

1820
01:33:57,340 --> 01:33:53,230
things and they have been studying them

1821
01:33:59,830 --> 01:33:57,350
they really can't not study them because

1822
01:34:02,790 --> 01:33:59,840
you realized with all the electronic

1823
01:34:05,560 --> 01:34:02,800
equipment that they're using radar

1824
01:34:07,300 --> 01:34:05,570
satellites everything they know pretty

1825
01:34:10,930 --> 01:34:07,310
much everything that's going on in our

1826
01:34:14,070 --> 01:34:10,940
skies and if any of this stuff presents

1827
01:34:18,550 --> 01:34:14,080
any kind of a risk or threat to aviation

1828
01:34:21,370 --> 01:34:18,560
or military operations they're concerned

1829
01:34:25,180 --> 01:34:21,380
about it and and and they should be

1830
01:34:28,150 --> 01:34:25,190
concerned about it if you if you put

1831
01:34:31,150 --> 01:34:28,160
your your you know your Air Force

1832
01:34:35,320 --> 01:34:31,160
general hat on for a moment you have to

1833
01:34:37,330 --> 01:34:35,330
realize if there's some kind of what

1834
01:34:40,420 --> 01:34:37,340
looks like spacecraft flying around in

1835
01:34:42,700 --> 01:34:40,430
our atmosphere and they're not ours then

1836
01:34:45,520 --> 01:34:42,710
someone like that would be concerned

1837
01:34:49,570 --> 01:34:45,530
because it's a matter of national

1838
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:49,580
defense national security to them even

1839
01:34:53,350 --> 01:34:51,410
though there may not be any overt

1840
01:34:56,530 --> 01:34:53,360
hostile acts going on because they don't

1841
01:34:59,920 --> 01:34:56,540
know exactly what they're up to they are

1842
01:35:03,310 --> 01:34:59,930
concerned now over the years there have

1843
01:35:05,140 --> 01:35:03,320
been incidents at nuclear bases that

1844
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:05,150
have occurred and this has been going on

1845
01:35:12,250 --> 01:35:08,410
for decades and so

1846
01:35:13,900 --> 01:35:12,260
right there is enough of reason for them

1847
01:35:17,830 --> 01:35:13,910
to be concerned for the military people

1848
01:35:20,500 --> 01:35:17,840
to be concerned now remember these tick

1849
01:35:25,050 --> 01:35:20,510
tack incidents of Tic Tac and the other

1850
01:35:31,180 --> 01:35:25,060
videos like that those occurred on

1851
01:35:36,280 --> 01:35:31,190
during exercises by military and here we

1852
01:35:38,470 --> 01:35:36,290
have all kinds of you know highly

1853
01:35:40,450 --> 01:35:38,480
weaponized you know planes carrying all

1854
01:35:42,400 --> 01:35:40,460
kinds of weapons now maybe during

1855
01:35:44,890 --> 01:35:42,410
exercises they weren't carrying live

1856
01:35:47,380 --> 01:35:44,900
weapons but still they are weapons of

1857
01:35:49,810 --> 01:35:47,390
war the aircraft carrier itself is a

1858
01:35:53,110 --> 01:35:49,820
weapon of war the aircraft carrier is

1859
01:35:59,490 --> 01:35:53,120
powered by nuclear power all this stuff

1860
01:36:04,300 --> 01:35:59,500
is all points to concerns about not just

1861
01:36:08,250 --> 01:36:04,310
weapons period but nuclear weapons and

1862
01:36:13,630 --> 01:36:08,260
any use of nuclear power as part of our

1863
01:36:17,170 --> 01:36:13,640
or defense arsenal so you will find that

1864
01:36:20,500 --> 01:36:17,180
if you study the literature you will

1865
01:36:22,450 --> 01:36:20,510
find a number of incidents that have to

1866
01:36:27,820 --> 01:36:22,460
do with things that happen around

1867
01:36:28,720 --> 01:36:27,830
nuclear bases Roswell Roswell Army

1868
01:36:31,830 --> 01:36:28,730
Airfield

1869
01:36:34,840 --> 01:36:31,840
was the home of the 509th bomber group

1870
01:36:37,600 --> 01:36:34,850
that is the group that sent the plane

1871
01:36:40,330 --> 01:36:37,610
over to bomb erosion

1872
01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:40,340
Nagasaki the atomic bombs that's where

1873
01:36:48,970 --> 01:36:45,170
they came from they were our first base

1874
01:36:51,100 --> 01:36:48,980
with atomic bombs and for many years

1875
01:36:55,780 --> 01:36:51,110
they were our only base with atomic

1876
01:36:58,510 --> 01:36:55,790
bombs so so the Roswell incident in just

1877
01:37:02,020 --> 01:36:58,520
happen the blue there's some other

1878
01:37:08,050 --> 01:37:02,030
factor involved there and has to do with

1879
01:37:11,560 --> 01:37:08,060
nuclear weapons yeah I forgot off on a

1880
01:37:13,170 --> 01:37:11,570
tangent there but all that stuff but

1881
01:37:18,340 --> 01:37:13,180
still when it goes back to disclosure

1882
01:37:20,470 --> 01:37:18,350
the the confirmation that came up in in

1883
01:37:21,640 --> 01:37:20,480
the year in the year and a half or so

1884
01:37:25,320 --> 01:37:21,650
after that

1885
01:37:28,840 --> 01:37:25,330
disclosure in 2017 all the way through

1886
01:37:32,410 --> 01:37:28,850
2019 there were further disclosures that

1887
01:37:34,150 --> 01:37:32,420
came out to show that yes in fact our

1888
01:37:36,870 --> 01:37:34,160
military has been studying this for a

1889
01:37:41,320 --> 01:37:36,880
long time now full disclosure that

1890
01:37:44,650 --> 01:37:41,330
that's more difficult or one thing

1891
01:37:48,700 --> 01:37:44,660
there's a lot of detailed stuff that we

1892
01:37:51,550 --> 01:37:48,710
may never get them to release let us say

1893
01:37:55,060 --> 01:37:51,560
and and this may or may not be true but

1894
01:37:57,880 --> 01:37:55,070
let's assume that they have wreckage

1895
01:38:00,790 --> 01:37:57,890
from the Roswell crash and dead bodies

1896
01:38:03,250 --> 01:38:00,800
of aliens stored somewhere are they ever

1897
01:38:07,480 --> 01:38:03,260
gonna give those things up that would be

1898
01:38:10,990 --> 01:38:07,490
pretty difficult because then someone

1899
01:38:12,490 --> 01:38:11,000
has to admit oh yeah we've been lying to

1900
01:38:16,300 --> 01:38:12,500
everyone for decades and saying oh no

1901
01:38:20,520 --> 01:38:16,310
there's no such thing and the same thing

1902
01:38:24,400 --> 01:38:20,530
with many of the other you know possible

1903
01:38:27,010 --> 01:38:24,410
pieces of wreckage or other artifacts or

1904
01:38:30,730 --> 01:38:27,020
debris that have been collected over the

1905
01:38:33,070 --> 01:38:30,740
decades it's much more difficult to get

1906
01:38:36,700 --> 01:38:33,080
someone to disclose things to that level

1907
01:38:41,950 --> 01:38:36,710
but the disclosure has begun it's not

1908
01:38:42,970 --> 01:38:41,960
and in really turn back to clock on that

1909
01:38:45,130 --> 01:38:42,980
sort of thing you can't get the

1910
01:38:47,650 --> 01:38:45,140
toothpaste back in the tube it's just

1911
01:38:52,090 --> 01:38:47,660
gonna progress at a slower pace then

1912
01:38:54,310 --> 01:38:52,100
maybe we'd like but it's happening yeah

1913
01:38:58,720 --> 01:38:54,320
you actually answered just about every

1914
01:39:00,910 --> 01:38:58,730
question I had thereafter you're very

1915
01:39:04,630 --> 01:39:00,920
comprehensive in your answers so that

1916
01:39:07,810 --> 01:39:04,640
was fantastic and did I'll want to ask

1917
01:39:10,300 --> 01:39:07,820
you one last question and that is if you

1918
01:39:15,149 --> 01:39:10,310
had one or a few things to say that

1919
01:39:25,109 --> 01:39:18,069
fill-in-the-blank about the topic of

1920
01:39:31,660 --> 01:39:25,119
ufology what would it or baby oh boy

1921
01:39:37,239 --> 01:39:31,670
alright um uh UFOs are stranger than we

1922
01:39:39,819 --> 01:39:37,249
think that's the the that's my lead

1923
01:39:44,020 --> 01:39:39,829
topic sentence and the reason I'll say

1924
01:39:46,660 --> 01:39:44,030
that is because a lot of a lot of people

1925
01:39:50,200 --> 01:39:46,670
think more on the level as I was saying

1926
01:39:53,529 --> 01:39:50,210
before a spacecraft from another planet

1927
01:39:56,009 --> 01:39:53,539
carrying alien beings you know piloted

1928
01:40:01,750 --> 01:39:56,019
by alien beings that are visiting here

1929
01:40:07,290 --> 01:40:01,760
but they are almost certainly stranger

1930
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:07,300
than that there are too many strange

1931
01:40:14,020 --> 01:40:10,489
phenomena that go along with the apology

1932
01:40:18,609 --> 01:40:14,030
that we can't escape from people who are

1933
01:40:21,700 --> 01:40:18,619
having abduction experiences they often

1934
01:40:29,100 --> 01:40:21,710
experience the very strange things such

1935
01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:29,110
as telepathy teleportation levitation

1936
01:40:38,439 --> 01:40:32,690
seeing craft materialize and

1937
01:40:42,430 --> 01:40:38,449
dematerialize having conversations with

1938
01:40:45,069 --> 01:40:42,440
these beings which appear to be

1939
01:40:47,350 --> 01:40:45,079
telepathic because they say they can

1940
01:40:49,689 --> 01:40:47,360
they can hear the thoughts in their head

1941
01:40:54,359 --> 01:40:49,699
but they can't see the mouth moving you

1942
01:40:57,279 --> 01:40:54,369
know that kind of thing now beyond that

1943
01:41:00,969 --> 01:40:57,289
anyone who's really interested in in the

1944
01:41:03,399 --> 01:41:00,979
abduction topic I would suggest that

1945
01:41:08,069 --> 01:41:03,409
they read some of really good books on

1946
01:41:10,959 --> 01:41:08,079
the subject to really explore what

1947
01:41:15,700 --> 01:41:10,969
people have thought about this over the

1948
01:41:19,479 --> 01:41:15,710
past 20 years or more because there's a

1949
01:41:22,540 --> 01:41:19,489
lot of speculation some of it based on

1950
01:41:24,989 --> 01:41:22,550
some pretty good data but I don't want

1951
01:41:28,620 --> 01:41:24,999
to get too deep into it right now but

1952
01:41:31,979 --> 01:41:28,630
it's it's it all goes back to what I

1953
01:41:34,200 --> 01:41:31,989
he said this whole thing if if you're

1954
01:41:36,240 --> 01:41:34,210
not deep into it as I have been for many

1955
01:41:39,840 --> 01:41:36,250
years and haven't read so many books on

1956
01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:39,850
it you're in for a real surprise if you

1957
01:41:44,189 --> 01:41:41,650
decide you want to do getting to really

1958
01:41:51,660 --> 01:41:44,199
study the subject because as I said it

1959
01:41:54,780 --> 01:41:51,670
is much stranger than you think I wanted

1960
01:41:58,080 --> 01:41:54,790
to mention the URL to your website which

1961
01:41:59,700 --> 01:41:58,090
I believe is MUFON Oregon dot-com yeah

1962
01:42:01,140 --> 01:41:59,710
I've got the link I'm gonna put it in

1963
01:42:03,240 --> 01:42:01,150
the description section so they'll be

1964
01:42:06,120 --> 01:42:03,250
able to find that and I look in the out

1965
01:42:08,250 --> 01:42:06,130
at the right sidebar for that collection

1966
01:42:11,160 --> 01:42:08,260
of suggested reading for books and all

1967
01:42:13,590 --> 01:42:11,170
that great and then if Tom could just

1968
01:42:15,870 --> 01:42:13,600
verbally say the the address of the

1969
01:42:20,310 --> 01:42:15,880
website that would be great yeah it's

1970
01:42:23,189 --> 01:42:20,320
Oregon MUFON com great Oregon MUFON comm

1971
01:42:25,770 --> 01:42:23,199
wanted to mention that fifty years ago

1972
01:42:27,870 --> 01:42:25,780
MUFON was created in 1969 it's a

1973
01:42:30,689 --> 01:42:27,880
nonprofit organization it has thousands

1974
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:30,699
of members all over the world in many

1975
01:42:35,550 --> 01:42:33,489
countries all 50 states and the

1976
01:42:37,470 --> 01:42:35,560
international directors Jan harson and

1977
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:37,480
the International director of

1978
01:42:41,970 --> 01:42:39,489
investigations of Steve Hudgens we

1979
01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:41,980
talked about Doug tonight and then also

1980
01:42:46,470 --> 01:42:45,130
I wanted to thank Tom Bowden who is the

1981
01:42:49,050 --> 01:42:46,480
director of Oregon

1982
01:42:51,090 --> 01:42:49,060
MUFON for having been on with us tonight

1983
01:42:53,250 --> 01:42:51,100
and spent so much time talking to us

1984
01:42:56,040 --> 01:42:53,260
about such fascinating cases and

1985
01:42:57,510 --> 01:42:56,050
prepared such a wonderful talk for us

1986
01:42:59,160 --> 01:42:57,520
it's been such a pleasure and an honor

1987
01:43:00,870 --> 01:42:59,170
having you on the show yeah thanks so

1988
01:43:03,570 --> 01:43:00,880
much time I really appreciate it I had a

1989
01:43:05,520 --> 01:43:03,580
great time talking to you tonight thank

1990
01:43:08,280 --> 01:43:05,530
you for giving me a chance to be on your

1991
01:43:10,379 --> 01:43:08,290
show we're very grateful to have had you

1992
01:43:13,260 --> 01:43:10,389
on I learned a lot and I'm also glad

1993
01:43:15,510 --> 01:43:13,270
that you went over so very carefully how

1994
01:43:19,709 --> 01:43:15,520
important it is for folks that if

1995
01:43:22,350 --> 01:43:19,719
they're going to study the topic of UFOs

1996
01:43:24,270 --> 01:43:22,360
which and to remind our audience that is

1997
01:43:25,470 --> 01:43:24,280
unidentified flying objects I know you

1998
01:43:27,510 --> 01:43:25,480
know that but we really need to

1999
01:43:30,180 --> 01:43:27,520
understand that is exactly what it is

2000
01:43:32,640 --> 01:43:30,190
they're unidentified if you want to

2001
01:43:35,729 --> 01:43:32,650
really get into that it's important that

2002
01:43:38,280 --> 01:43:35,739
you remain circumspect you have a

2003
01:43:42,580 --> 01:43:38,290
healthy skepticism and part of that

2004
01:43:48,770 --> 01:43:45,380
equipment to try and capture UFO

2005
01:43:50,270 --> 01:43:48,780
activity but also make sure that you try

2006
01:43:52,250 --> 01:43:50,280
and get it forensically investigated if

2007
01:43:55,760 --> 01:43:52,260
you're in a position to do so there's

2008
01:43:58,220 --> 01:43:55,770
one one website I do use to look over

2009
01:44:03,459 --> 01:43:58,230
photos that want to dimension and that

2010
01:44:06,439 --> 01:44:03,469
is photo forensics comm and it's f OTO

2011
01:44:08,630 --> 01:44:06,449
forensics comm what you can do is you

2012
01:44:12,919 --> 01:44:08,640
can upload a photo there and that

2013
01:44:16,520 --> 01:44:12,929
reveals every aspect of the photo

2014
01:44:18,350 --> 01:44:16,530
regarding the exif data and more to see

2015
01:44:20,270 --> 01:44:18,360
if the photo has been manipulated in any

2016
01:44:22,490 --> 01:44:20,280
way shape or form that's not the last

2017
01:44:24,709 --> 01:44:22,500
word on whether it has been but it's an

2018
01:44:27,470 --> 01:44:24,719
interesting website one of hundreds on

2019
01:44:29,510 --> 01:44:27,480
the net and many other different kinds

2020
01:44:31,430 --> 01:44:29,520
of software to use to try and determine

2021
01:44:35,060 --> 01:44:31,440
what exactly you're looking at in the

2022
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:35,070
sky or coming out of the ocean okay go

2023
01:44:41,300 --> 01:44:37,650
ahead and yeah let me get the last word

2024
01:44:43,550 --> 01:44:41,310
in here thanks again to Tom Bowden and

2025
01:44:45,890 --> 01:44:43,560
we are going to be back Sunday with

2026
01:44:48,950 --> 01:44:45,900
buddy from alien protocols that should

2027
01:44:50,209 --> 01:44:48,960
be a lot of fun looking for damage for

2028
01:44:52,340 --> 01:44:50,219
mentioning that we've had buddy on

2029
01:44:56,000 --> 01:44:52,350
before and I wanted to see if Tom had

2030
01:44:59,560 --> 01:44:56,010
any last words before we go no I think

2031
01:45:03,380 --> 01:44:59,570
probably the best piece of equipment for

2032
01:45:06,560 --> 01:45:03,390
investigating UFOs is a good strong mind

2033
01:45:08,209 --> 01:45:06,570
hahaha fantastic well thanks thanks for

2034
01:45:10,640 --> 01:45:08,219
joining us everybody thanks chin and

2035
01:45:11,090 --> 01:45:10,650
we'll see you on Sunday thanks for